FE, "friction modifiers", and additives.
 

I agree that the vast majority of oil (and gas, for that matter) additives are junk (a distressingly large group being "worse then useless", in that you are worse off with the additive, then without it). However, after hanging out in the https://www.bobistheoilguy.com forums, reading, and (carefully) trying a few of the (better recommended) additives, I'm coming to the conclusion that there are some good/useful additives out there, and sometimes they even help FE.

After all, some of these chemical cocktails are useful for what they do, if you know how to use them, and use them in a reasonable dose. And really, what is an "additive", other than a bottle full of the (concentrated) stuff you might want to use? So I am now coming to the conclusion that while many additives are "snake oil", there are a few "good ones" out there. You just need a decent source to find them, and some way to "test the claims". And you also need to pay attention to how they are used (as some of them are good "in small doses", but cause harm when you use "too much").

Take "Friction Modifiers" for example ( https://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...;f=56;t=000002 ). While you can easily "over do it" with them (dosage is key), when CAREFULLY used they can lower overall drag in a car and thereby help FE (not to mention, helping keep down wear).

For example, I little before finding this forum, I put about 4oz (about 1/4 of the maker's IMHO "overly high" recommended dosage) of VSOT ( Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment; ) in my car's oil (already Mobil-1 full synthetic), and that was the 1st 47 mpg tankful I had ever recorded (before that, my highest recorded tankful was 43 mpg. And I've also repeated the 47 in one of the 2 gas tanks since that (so that wasn't a one time occurrence). And what do I attribute the FE boost to? The lower drag I noticed due to VSOT's FMs (mostly "Moly"):
https://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...;f=56;t=000002
https://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...1;t=000297;p=1
https://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...c;f=5;t=004779
https://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...;f=42;t=002488
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly.html

NOTE: It would be a little hard to do an A-B-A test on this, as some additives (including Moly) will stick around (at least partially), even after changing the oil. And with the quality oil and extra high filtration (including "bypass filters) we are using in the family cars, we have started using 10k+ oil changes (which means it will be a little while before we remove the additive containing oil the first time). However, I did clearly feel the lower drag, as the additive (used at only 1/4 of the maker's recommended dosage, as you don't want to over do these sorts of things) slowly worked it's way into the engine parts (seemed to take aprox 200 miles to fully work in).

The best way to test oil additives might be to have some dyno sessions, with the first group being without, and the second with additive after ~200miles. quick results with very few changes in condition, i.e. weather, other mods, driving route.

I've mentioned BITOG on here a couple times but nobody ever seems to go and read the stuff. Its a forum of a bunch of people who talk about oil. Just like this forum, but more specific.

Anyway, i've used VSOT and liked it in my truck and wifes car (won't be in new car though). Using FP60 and LC20 in my new car though, check out the gas log, i think most of my mileage increases are due to tire pressure and additives (since those are the only two things i've done)

There are guys on there that do UOA's (used oil analysis) on oil and figure out how the oils hold up in different cars for different service periods, all very technical stuff, and they give out info here and there on what oil brands are really like under the microscope.

I recently managed to find 2 bottles of VSOT at a NAPA store...it can be hard to find. Will use at 4 oz per change.

Good to hear of your mpg gains with it!

I'm also going to start using a dino oil with higher levels of moly in it...probably Havoline.

Here are some oils that should have good levels of moly already in them (need to verify?):

Chevron 15W40 moly = 198

** Chevron 5W30 moly = 221

Chevron Delo 400 15W40 moly = 220 or 164

Valvoline All Fleet Plus 15W-40 API CH-4/SJ moly

** Mobil Clean 5000 5w-30 moly = 156

Valvoline Synpower Additive moly = 2324

Texaco Havoline 5W-20 ... moly 400+

Mobil 7500 10W30 moly = 112

** Pennzoil 5W30 moly = 207 or 179

Have 2 old cars with solid engines that are rusting away...while I've been using synth oils in them. I've put 70K on one and 40K on the other...they still don't use anymore oil than when I started. So I'll save on oil costs.

I've been there a few times....good place to study oils/additives. They didn't like my tales of using solid moly and teflon together in an engine though. A lot of people with some prejudices...mostly based on "facts" though.

whoa! read my post, i didn't claim a gain with the VSOT, i claimed a gain with the FP and LC.

I used the VSOT in my Truck and am not sure what to think, old engine, was looking for something good for it.

Using it currently in wifes civic, can't track changes in mileage with her, but i've driven the car with and without the VSOT and like it better with.

I added some LC to her oil without telling her and she proceeded to get excited the next 3 tanks were giving her better mileage (i've at least got her checking her mileage casually)

I'm the one that seems to be getting better MPG with VSOT. However, like so many of these things, YMMV (as there are many variables that control how a given engine responds to something you do).

So I have no idea what percentage of other people get better MPG with VSOT. There are some (older) reports on BITOG mentioning better MPG with VSOT, so I'm clearly not the first to notice this effect. However, I don't know how common that FE boost is, nor do I know what factors (condition of the engine, oil used, etc) determine who might get an MPG boost from VSOT, and who won't. And even many of the people that don't seem to get better FE with VSOT, have reported lower wear in their UOA (Used Oil Analysis), and a generally "happier" sounding/running engine.

BTW: I just mentioned VSOT as an example of a "good" additive out there, not as the only one. I still believe that many additives are junk, but (as I said at the start of this thread) we shouldn't assume that all are junk, simply because many are. If you want another example (that I've got on order, but haven't personally tried yet), Auto-RX is also (according to BITOG forums) supposed to be very good for what it does (which in the case of ARX, is to gently clean the junk out of an older engine/transmission/etc, thereby letting the equipment work closer to it's designed/peak effeciency).

NOTE to all:
The BITOG forums ( https://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php ) are NOT just about oil. Yes, they are primarily an oil related web site, but they have branched out into several other (mostly car related) topic areas. For example, while I learned about pumping up the PSI on tires from this site, I actually learned a lot more about the physics of what that does to the tire/car (the good, the bad, and the just plain different, aspects of higher tire pressure) from the BITOG "Tires & Wheels" forum (then I did from this forum)! I have also learned a lot about antifreezes/coolants on the BITOG site as well. So, while they may be one of the best oil related sites out there, they are not just about oil.

It's interesting that you got this gain using VSOT at the same time you are using synth oil...might answer the question as to whether a synth oil can be helped by using additives.

One additive I'd like to test is Lubegards engine oil additive...have to use it each change though...costs a bit.

Anyone ever use "Engine Restorer" oil additive. Last year at this time my truck turned 75k. I had a 7 to 10 hp increase after 250 mile run time after adding it.

I've lurked at BITOG a few times... I even learned something.

I mainly went there to learn about cleaning out the engine. Everyone was using seafoam and I went to BITOG and learned about AutoRX.

While I still havn't actually used the stuff (don't drive enough) I do think I will be using it sometime soon to clean out my engine and get it all pretty.

I would love to learn about any oil additives that help with gas mileage. Now that my gas mileage car is running again I want to get as many "small" things done as possible to make give me a big boost.

What are FP60 and LC20 and who makes them?

https://www.lubecontrol.com/index.htm

discussed heavily on BITOG, small company, you must order online.. LC20 is an oil additive for the crankcase, supposed to add lubricity and help keep things clean. FP60 is a fuel additive that is supposed to keep things lubed and clean as well.

I've been using them on my new Yaris and my wifes Civic and have noted some mileage improvement and smoother running engine. I used to just use Marvel Myster Oil as a fuel additive in the civic and my truck, the smoothness part was cool, but not really any mileage changes (unless i overdosed, then the mileage went down).

Check out the additives section on BITOG, loads of info.

I've also used Auto-RX, and since i haven't done any UOA's with it i won't ever really know for sure, but with so many people reporting great results (or at least nothing negative) i felt confident i wouldn't at least hurt anything.

Just put 4 oz Valv Synpower additive in both cars.

Might be a good idea to TRY to mix or shake this stuff up some before using 4 oz....I noticed some darker stuff (moly) settled in the bottom of the bottle.

If you used the full bottle...wouldn't need to?

Moly..... actually molybdenum disulfide... is a solid. What keeps it from getting removed by the oil filter before it reaches any moving parts?

Synlube uses colloidal particles in the 3-5 micron size of molybdenum disulfide, PTFE and Graphite suspended in a non-petrolium base liquid for the engine lube and an 8 micron high flow filter that passes the particles. It seems to be working in my xB. Not much point in purchasing any oil additives to be thrown away at th enext oil change when you can buy Lube that has it all and you change at 150,000 mile intervals or more.

I've used moly sold by JCWhitney in the past called MotorMoly...which was very finely ground solid moly...AND used it with Teflon in an engine. AND used some fuel line magnets to boot. All serious crimes. Got around an 8-10% mixed mpg gain though.

This was a loose engine...minor oil burner.

Are you still using them?

No...I sold this car a good while back.

I was trying to duplicate Tuffoil...which has both.

But every time someone mentions using ground moly and/or teflon....there are many WARNINGS and so forth. Not to mention using magnets.

When I talked about this on a car forum it was "you aren't getting any mileage gain...if you were the car makers would already be doing it...it will clog up your filter and oil passages...the end of the world is nigh...you're an idiot".

This was before gas prices jumped up...I was just messing around.

Just like the Escort diesel I had that got 49 mpg...sold it for $50 because it needed tires and some work...and it wasn't fancy enough.

"Work in"? Isn't this what the snake oil folks have been saying? "Soaks in"? Works in"? I did not realize the metals involved in your engine were porous! In fact, they are not! Even the lattice material between the grains of the metal are NOT porous! Be careful of the languages used to "sell stuff"! Lots of BS out there! Did this "soak in"??? :-)) -Ted Hart

Hey where did you learn about metalergy? Alloys are porus and just about everything in an engine is an alloy. Unless they are really polished to a mirror finish they have a roughness to the surface which makes the oil film stick to it. Impreglon - a company that heats the metal to about 700 degrees in a tefllon gas chamber gets the pores to absorb the PTFE into the metal tens of thousands of an inch deep. The end result is some very slippery metal parts like a wrist pin that you can't hold between your fingers without it slipping out of them. Teflon oil treatments rely on burnishing the PTFE into the metal and Synlube does the same with Moly in their lube.

I'm sorry if my phrasing wasn't technical enough for you. What phrasing would you have liked?

By "works in", I was talking about the process of getting the additive where it needs to be in the engine, vs the initial condition of the additive just sitting in the oil pan (along with the oil you added it to). For example, Moly will plate itself to the surface of metal, in the presence of heat and pressure. Both of these forces are present in an engine (and as long as the Moly is suspended in the oil, it will eventually get to the moving parts with those forces present), but the process takes a little time to complete (i.e. it takes a while to "work in").

BTW: You WANT the Moly to plate to the moving engine parts, as Moly (when it does plate to the metal) will be a much smoother/slick surface than most existing engine surfaces. Hence the lower friction!

And FWIW the surface of most engine metals is (on a microscopic level) very rough/porous. Which is why coating/plating the surface with something (such as Moly) that "fills in the gaps" can be "a good thing"...

NOTE: Teflon based car additives have also claimed this plating effect. However, in the case of Teflon, the plating process requires more heat than a car engine usually produces (so dumping Teflon into your engine, is likely to not help much, as it won't go where it's needed). And (worse yet) while the heat in a car engine isn't enough to cause Teflon to "plate" to the parts, it is enough to cause small Teflon particles to grow many times their original size (thereby making it very likely that many initially small Teflon particles will grow to a size large enough to cause engine problems due to their size). Which is why many people say Teflon is usually "a bad thing" in an engine. However, Moly has neither the problem with requiring too high of a heat (the heat/pressure in an engine is fine for causing the plating effect with Moly), nor does it have problems with "growing" (and thereby plugging up oil filters, or worse) when heated. So (unlike Teflon) Moly (in moderation) can be "a good thing" in an engine...

BTW: For those who don't know, Moly (a metal) is a "solid lubricant" (a lube that you use in its solid, not liquid, state). It's not overly cheap, but it is very effective (being very slick, having a tendency to "plate" to metal surfaces, and handling extreme pressure without problems). Teflon (aka PTFE, a plastic) is also a highly slick solid lubricant (and I think is noticeably cheaper than Moly). However, the problems with using Teflon as an oil additive are well documented. While Teflon (aka PTFE) might have some use as a plating on manufactured car parts (where you can effectively do what is needed to bond the Teflon to the part when making it), it has no place as an oil additive. OTOH Moly (when properly suspended in the oil) can effectively do it's work (as a solid lube with plating tendencies), without the (well documented) down-sides of Teflon.

Well...apparently Tuffoil and Synlube both use moly and teflon?

On BITOG they cring when anyone adds additives to finely tuned motor oils....but it's possible that loading an engine or trans/diffs with a moly/teflon combination additve might work...did for me at one time.

It's the size of the particles that make the difference as well as what they are suspended in. When I emptied the containers of the Synlube they pretty much were clean at the bottom. I also tried a little on a cheep 12 volt air compressor - it made a hugh difference after it worked in a little - draws almost half the no load current. The Slick50 gear lube I had sitting around for about 20 years had a lot of white PTFE at the bottom that I had to mix back in with an ultrasonic cleaner. Adding the Slick50 to the tranny oil added about 5mpg to my test loop run - guess the original gear lube in the xB needed some more slipperyness.

Could be. However, I still am skeptical of Teflon in a car engine (due to the well documented problems, including the fact that Teflon grows in size when heated).

Yes and no. Some BITOG members seem to cringe at adding any additive to a good oil. However, there seems to be a large number of BITOG members that think it can be a good thing, if (and only if) the additive has a clear cut benefit (that is at least partially understood), and you don't over do it.

In fact, it was the glowing BITOG testimonials of using VSOT (Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment) in moderation, that got me started with the stuff. But in the case of VSOT (which Moly is one ingredient in), BITOG members have analyzed the stuff (to see what is in it), and they were therefore able to figure out what it does and why. As a result, they had a pretty good idea when it might be useful, and when it wouldn't help (and even when it would likely be harmful). And they also had reports as to how it behaved in real engines (when various members tried it) so they were much more comfortable with using the stuff in a "well tuned oil" that still was weak in areas VSOT helped in.

I'm glad it worked for you. However, I'm still very skeptical of using Teflon as an oil additive, due to the well documented problems with it. And there really isn't much evidence (at least not much I'm aware of) that a Moly/Teflon mix is any more effective then just using more Moly as an additive (and it is known that Moly makes a much safer additive, for the insides of a car engine, then Teflon does).

OTOH even Moly can cause problems (in an engine) when abused. For example, if the additive maker makes the Moly partials too big, they can cause scratches. And if not properly suspended in the oil, then it will just precipitate out at the bottom of your oil pan (which doesn't do much harm, but also doesn't do you much good either). And you also need to be sure to add more acid neutralizers to the oil (VSOT has both Moly and increased acid neutralizers in it) when you use Moly, as Moly will turn to acid as it wears away (the wearing away of the Moly will protect moving metal parts, but acid is an undesirable by-product of the process). As a result, badly formed Moly additives can cause problems, even though Moly is generally helpful up to a point.

BTW: Many premium oils (including synthetics) already add some Moly to them. For example Mobil-1 has been analyzed (by BITOG members) to contain aprox 90 parts per million Moly ( https://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...;f=11;t=000310 ). And some oils have much more (for example, Redline brand synthetics seem to have over 600ppm). So if you already use such a "well balanced" oil, what you are doing with the additive is just increasing the levels a bit (essentially just "boosting the additive pack" of the oil a bit). While I would never use VSOT with a Redline oil (as IMHO the Moly is already pretty much "maxed out" as to safe levels in a Redline Synthetic), I do use it with my Mobil-1 full synthetic oil (which has much lower levels of additives initially, and even with the VSOT added still has lower Moly levels than Redline oils have by themselves).

NOTE: I know this tread has drifted to just a discussion of Moly and Teflon. But the thing is, Moly isn't the only thing that could be useful (in moderation) in an engine oil (nor is it the only useful active ingredient in VSOT). The point I was trying to make when we first started this thread, is that we shouldn't just blindly assume that all additive are junk (even though many additive are), because an "additive" is little more than some concentrated something (what the something is, varies with the additive). And if the oil (or gas/fuel, for that matter) is a little lacking in that something (or blend of somethings that the additive has in it), than if you are careful, you can usefully improve things by using the additive. But that assumes you know what the additive does, the thing it does is actually useful (and doesn't have undesirable side-effects you are trying to avoid), and you don't overdo it.

A medicine metaphor comes to mind, when I think of oil/gas additives. Many medicines can cause real problems when taken in too high a quantity (over dose), the wrong medicine is taken (no benefit, but you still get the side-effects), or the wrong combination is taken (thereby having the medicines "fight", potentially in a very toxic way). But carefully used (with these factors taken into account), medicines can do amazing things. In a similar way, how much an oil/gas additive helps/hurts will depend upon the same factors: i.e. Is the stuff in the additive, the right stuff for the job? Is the dosage correct, or are we increasing things to where side-effects get too bad (over dose)? And for that matter, will the stuff in the additive fight useful stuff already in the oil/gas (or in other oil/gas additives you also use)?

Apparently enough stickyness to make the syncros work well but took a lot of power to turn it. I heard a lot of xB owners were changing the tranny oil and getting much better performance.

"Where did you learn about metalergy?" Well, I learned in Metallurgy 301 & 302 at N.C. State University while I was a student there! And, I learned how to spell the word much earlier than that! LOL!
"Alloys are porus"? You mean "porous"? Can you give just one example? I'm not talking about a sintered material, either! The parent stock of a sintered metal is a little different than the sintered material's characteristics (like absorbing oil). Alloys I am familiar with are anything but "porous"!
And your comments about Teflon ( PTFE or peratetrafluoroethylene) and Moly (molybdenum disulfide)in Synlube sounds like you believe the labels you read at Kmart. Heating a Teflon chamber to 700 degrees? Dangerous! I would stick to reading cereal boxes...they're safer! -whitevette

One of the things I really like about this forum is people tend to be friendly, even when they disagree. I've been around a few others where discussion has turned into personal attacks.

Please keep it civil, people.

Agreed. Pointing out people's spelling errors is childish, mean, and will make the rest of us not take you seriously.

If people have a difficult time understanding the rules of this forum, please click the "Frequently Asked QUestions" tab on the top-right of your screen.

Sorry for the typos but I am in pain for the past few weeks with a mild infection makes it hard to concentrate at my age. Ok so the mileage in my BMW R100S increased from 40mph to 60mpg because I changed the bearings and not from getting the tranny and rear end teflon impregnated. And I got 48.3mpg driving home last night in my 2006 Scion xB because I have excellent coasting skills and not from the Synlube in the engine, tranny and power steering and acetone in my gas tank.