FE, "friction modifiers", and additives.

[DracoFelis]

I agree that the vast majority of oil (and gas, for that matter) additives are junk (a distressingly large group being "worse then useless", in that you are worse off with the additive, then without it). However, after hanging out in the http://www.bobistheoilguy.com forums, reading, and (carefully) trying a few of the (better recommended) additives, I'm coming to the conclusion that there are some good/useful additives out there, and sometimes they even help FE.

After all, some of these chemical cocktails are useful for what they do, if you know how to use them, and use them in a reasonable dose. And really, what is an "additive", other than a bottle full of the (concentrated) stuff you might want to use? So I am now coming to the conclusion that while many additives are "snake oil", there are a few "good ones" out there. You just need a decent source to find them, and some way to "test the claims". And you also need to pay attention to how they are used (as some of them are good "in small doses", but cause harm when you use "too much").

Take "Friction Modifiers" for example ( http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...;f=56;t=000002 ). While you can easily "over do it" with them (dosage is key), when CAREFULLY used they can lower overall drag in a car and thereby help FE (not to mention, helping keep down wear).

For example, I little before finding this forum, I put about 4oz (about 1/4 of the maker's IMHO "overly high" recommended dosage) of VSOT ( Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment; ) in my car's oil (already Mobil-1 full synthetic), and that was the 1st 47 mpg tankful I had ever recorded (before that, my highest recorded tankful was 43 mpg. And I've also repeated the 47 in one of the 2 gas tanks since that (so that wasn't a one time occurrence). And what do I attribute the FE boost to? The lower drag I noticed due to VSOT's FMs (mostly "Moly"):
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...;f=56;t=000002
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...1;t=000297;p=1
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...c;f=5;t=004779
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...;f=42;t=002488
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly.html

NOTE: It would be a little hard to do an A-B-A test on this, as some additives (including Moly) will stick around (at least partially), even after changing the oil. And with the quality oil and extra high filtration (including "bypass filters) we are using in the family cars, we have started using 10k+ oil changes (which means it will be a little while before we remove the additive containing oil the first time). However, I did clearly feel the lower drag, as the additive (used at only 1/4 of the maker's recommended dosage, as you don't want to over do these sorts of things) slowly worked it's way into the engine parts (seemed to take aprox 200 miles to fully work in).

[omgwtfbyobbq]

The best way to test oil additives might be to have some dyno sessions, with the first group being without, and the second with additive after ~200miles. quick results with very few changes in condition, i.e. weather, other mods, driving route.

[chesspirate]

I've mentioned BITOG on here a couple times but nobody ever seems to go and read the stuff. Its a forum of a bunch of people who talk about oil. Just like this forum, but more specific.

Anyway, i've used VSOT and liked it in my truck and wifes car (won't be in new car though). Using FP60 and LC20 in my new car though, check out the gas log, i think most of my mileage increases are due to tire pressure and additives (since those are the only two things i've done)

There are guys on there that do UOA's (used oil analysis) on oil and figure out how the oils hold up in different cars for different service periods, all very technical stuff, and they give out info here and there on what oil brands are really like under the microscope.

[ZugyNA]

I recently managed to find 2 bottles of VSOT at a NAPA store...it can be hard to find. Will use at 4 oz per change.

Good to hear of your mpg gains with it!

I'm also going to start using a dino oil with higher levels of moly in it...probably Havoline.

Here are some oils that should have good levels of moly already in them (need to verify?):

Chevron 15W40 moly = 198

** Chevron 5W30 moly = 221

Chevron Delo 400 15W40 moly = 220 or 164

Valvoline All Fleet Plus 15W-40 API CH-4/SJ moly

** Mobil Clean 5000 5w-30 moly = 156

Valvoline Synpower Additive moly = 2324

Texaco Havoline 5W-20 ... moly 400+

Mobil 7500 10W30 moly = 112

** Pennzoil 5W30 moly = 207 or 179

Have 2 old cars with solid engines that are rusting away...while I've been using synth oils in them. I've put 70K on one and 40K on the other...they still don't use anymore oil than when I started. So I'll save on oil costs.

[ZugyNA]

Originally Posted by chesspirate

I've mentioned BITOG on here a couple times but nobody ever seems to go and read the stuff. Its a forum of a bunch of people who talk about oil. Just like this forum, but more specific.

I've been there a few times....good place to study oils/additives. They didn't like my tales of using solid moly and teflon together in an engine though. A lot of people with some prejudices...mostly based on "facts" though.

[chesspirate]

Good to hear of your mpg gains with it!

whoa! read my post, i didn't claim a gain with the VSOT, i claimed a gain with the FP and LC.

I used the VSOT in my Truck and am not sure what to think, old engine, was looking for something good for it.

Using it currently in wifes civic, can't track changes in mileage with her, but i've driven the car with and without the VSOT and like it better with.

I added some LC to her oil without telling her and she proceeded to get excited the next 3 tanks were giving her better mileage (i've at least got her checking her mileage casually)

[DracoFelis]

Originally Posted by chesspirate

whoa! read my post, i didn't claim a gain with the VSOT, i claimed a gain with the FP and LC.

I used the VSOT in my Truck and am not sure what to think, old engine, was looking for something good for it.

Using it currently in wifes civic, can't track changes in mileage with her, but i've driven the car with and without the VSOT and like it better with.

I'm the one that seems to be getting better MPG with VSOT. However, like so many of these things, YMMV (as there are many variables that control how a given engine responds to something you do).

So I have no idea what percentage of other people get better MPG with VSOT. There are some (older) reports on BITOG mentioning better MPG with VSOT, so I'm clearly not the first to notice this effect. However, I don't know how common that FE boost is, nor do I know what factors (condition of the engine, oil used, etc) determine who might get an MPG boost from VSOT, and who won't. And even many of the people that don't seem to get better FE with VSOT, have reported lower wear in their UOA (Used Oil Analysis), and a generally "happier" sounding/running engine.

BTW: I just mentioned VSOT as an example of a "good" additive out there, not as the only one. I still believe that many additives are junk, but (as I said at the start of this thread) we shouldn't assume that all are junk, simply because many are. If you want another example (that I've got on order, but haven't personally tried yet), Auto-RX is also (according to BITOG forums) supposed to be very good for what it does (which in the case of ARX, is to gently clean the junk out of an older engine/transmission/etc, thereby letting the equipment work closer to it's designed/peak effeciency).

NOTE to all:
The BITOG forums ( http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php ) are NOT just about oil. Yes, they are primarily an oil related web site, but they have branched out into several other (mostly car related) topic areas. For example, while I learned about pumping up the PSI on tires from this site, I actually learned a lot more about the physics of what that does to the tire/car (the good, the bad, and the just plain different, aspects of higher tire pressure) from the BITOG "Tires & Wheels" forum (then I did from this forum)! I have also learned a lot about antifreezes/coolants on the BITOG site as well. So, while they may be one of the best oil related sites out there, they are not just about oil.

[ZugyNA]

Originally Posted by DracoFelis

I put about 4oz (about 1/4 of the maker's IMHO "overly high" recommended dosage) of VSOT ( Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment; ) in my car's oil (already Mobil-1 full synthetic), and that was the 1st 47 mpg tankful I had ever recorded (before that, my highest recorded tankful was 43 mpg. And I've also repeated the 47 in one of the 2 gas tanks since that (so that wasn't a one time occurrence).

It's interesting that you got this gain using VSOT at the same time you are using synth oil...might answer the question as to whether a synth oil can be helped by using additives.

One additive I'd like to test is Lubegards engine oil additive...have to use it each change though...costs a bit.

[GasSavers_maxc]

Anyone ever use "Engine Restorer" oil additive. Last year at this time my truck turned 75k. I had a 7 to 10 hp increase after 250 mile run time after adding it.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by chesspirate

I've mentioned BITOG on here a couple times but nobody ever seems to go and read the stuff. Its a forum of a bunch of people who talk about oil. Just like this forum, but more specific

I've lurked at BITOG a few times... I even learned something.

I mainly went there to learn about cleaning out the engine. Everyone was using seafoam and I went to BITOG and learned about AutoRX.

While I still havn't actually used the stuff (don't drive enough) I do think I will be using it sometime soon to clean out my engine and get it all pretty.

I would love to learn about any oil additives that help with gas mileage. Now that my gas mileage car is running again I want to get as many "small" things done as possible to make give me a big boost.