Chevy volt crap mileage?
 

I mean we can all agree 50mpg is pretty good for a non hybrid and is fairly decent for a hybrid, but what about the chevy volt?

https://www.treehugger.com/files/2007...uzz_around.php

According to Chevy, the Volt gets 50 mpg with the generator running in what?s call ranger-extender mode. If driven 60 miles, with the last 20 miles in this mode, this results in a 150 mpg equivalent for the trip.

Shouldn't this be getting better than 50mpg in the generator mode? Also the crap about 150mpg equivalent for a 60 mile trip is nonsense because using power off the grid shouldn't be factored into the figure for MPG.

Another page:
https://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01...y-the-numbers/

Why is the curb weight so damned high? The EV1 used LEAD ACID and this is going to use li-ion yet it weighs more? Has GM not learned that a heavy vehicle is going to get poorer mileage? Why is this thing so stupidly heavy?

looks like a much bigger car to me...

Its only about 50 pounds more, but its a 4 passenger vehicle instead of a 2 passenger. Its a bigger vehicle.

In case you didn't notice, the EV1 has LEAD ACID batteries, the Volt is Lithium Ion batteries.

Huh, 3100 ain't nothing for a car these days, more's the pity.

The EV1 was a tiny aluminum thing, like an Insight with Saturn styling. It's just not comparable. And they did make a NiMH version at the end.

Nobody really knows what the Volt will or won't do... in a couple of years maybe there will be some hard numbers. At $40k or so, it'd be more interesting what the cheaper cars can do by then.

If you want to make a car with better mileage, you've gotta reduce the weight. The Honda Insight weighed 1800lbs and that is WITH batteries. If they elongated the same car to fit 4 passengers, it'd take no more than 100-200lbs of sheetmetal and that's a stretch. Why is that a stretch? Because the Civic Coupe, and hatchbacks tend to weigh in around 100-50lbs less than their 4 door counterparts, even when considering the lighter weight VX/HXs. The small weight difference in the two door and 4 door models has been consistent for at least 2 decades.

General Motors doesn't seem to understand that just because you make an aerodynamic vehicle and throw in all this half assed stolen technology (I'm exaggerating) it doesn't mean the car is going to be fuel efficient. I bet had the EV1 weighed as much as the Honda Insight it would have had the range of 150 miles to 200 miles, and that's on LEAD ACID batteries. Then again, we don't know what the car weighed without the batteries so it's all conjecture. Just remember, the 1800LB Insight is nearly HALF the weight of the EV1 and the Volt yet it carried NIMH batteries, an Engine and didn't skimp on any features. (IMO) From what I read, even after they changed the EV1 batteries to NIMH, I don't believe the curb weight changed all that much.


I thought I should also let you guys know my family was one of the first to have an EV1, I have the charger to prove it.:D

i'm with you on this *************. also they had older tech. batterys and that got more mileage on one charge with then the volt. the weight is diffently added to aplease big oil. because once the batterys are out of juice, u gotta use the generator that uses(big shocking music from soap operas)gasoline. reduce the weight by say...100-150 pounds and keep the batterys,motor..etc the same or loss the weight and add more batterys.lol shoot add 100lbs more batterys lol. GM is a good company, with some pretty good cars. They do front flips to make the public/consummer happy. but at the same time do triple flips to make Big Oil even happier. Same goes for most other companys as well.

I understand that, its still a larger vehicle though... Steel is heavy.

true, steel is heavy. but why not use aluminum. cheaper, lighter,and if it's a good grade it can be even stronger.

Doesn't matter if it's larger and they could've used aluminum instead. They seriously would have been better off taking the insight, making some small cosmetic changes and using that as the platform for the volt. It's not like GM isn't used to rebadging other companies brands anyhow.

I'm amazed at all the hate for the Volt. They're making a genuine, honest effort that NOBODY ELSE IS MAKING, and people just dump on them constantly.

Folks, if we could go from the 12mpg 5000lb V8 SUV directly to 1500lb all-electric 500mi range instant recharge technology, somebody would have already done it. Instead, baby steps are necessary. The first was Prius, the next was hybrids like the Civic and GM's mild hybrids. Volt is the next step.

Volt is a few steps beyond Prius. Prius is EPA rated 48/45. If Volt gets EPA rated 50 in gas-generation mode it still beats the Prius without even having the plug-in ability that Prius lacks...and still offers additional value for plug-in ability!

GM's vision for Volt is NOT merely a plug-in hybrid. They want to use it as a basis for nearly modular electric car technology, where they could easily replace the gas generator with other power sources - diesel generator, fuel cell, additional batteries, whatever. It's the next step, but it's NOT the final destination. Think of it that way and it becomes worthwhile to support it, unless you really want ALL car companies to think the public hates the idea of alternative power -- because all this hate isn't just observed by GM; other companies look at it and say "To hell with that, let's not get involved."

Where do you get aluminum cheaper than steel?

Well I for one wouldn't be so frustrated if the baby steps taken 15 years ago were getting followed up on. For example, the Uniq M90 was a series hybrid based on the Chrysler Minivan with a small honda genny that ran natural, propane or methanol. Then the Chrysler TEVan with the later nickel iron batteries, a pure electric was getting 80 miles to a charge, and I think Unique Mobility then did some range extender genny retrofits combining the two, basically making a 5 passenger vehicle that appears to have had about double the range of the Volt... 15 years ago.

If you're particularly determined, you can spend about 15 grand building your own series hybrid with similar performance to the Volt, starting with a $3000 gasser, using lead acid batteries. Or you can build the rqriley car from plans and VW parts, or wait probably a shorter time than waiting for the Volt for him to finalise the XR3 design https://www.rqriley.com/t-car.html

Anyway, the Volt seems lackluster for a vehicle purportedly using modern tech, it seems it's barely leveraging 15 yo tech.

The issue is that they're making a poor effort. Yes, it's better than the fuel-sucking SUVs and trucks they've been selling, and yes, it's better than the econo-box wanna-bes they've been selling, but that's not really saying much, is it?
With our current technology, weight is the enemy of efficiency. When you've got limited battery power to run on, efficiency is key. The heavier the vehicle, the more stop and go traffic will kill it's range. Until someone makes a practical super-capacitor, even regenerative braking won't fix that... There's just too much energy lost in the battery charge/discharge cycle.
Even if they couldn't make it lighter for some reason, they could certainly add more battery capacity. But even on that front, the Volt leaves me asking... wtf? Looking at the EV1/Volt comparison, the EV1 had 3x the volume of batteries. Wikipedia lists the energy density of lead acid batteries as 0.14-0.17 MJ/L, and that of lithium ion batteries as 0.9-1.9 MJ/L. So if you compare the best lead/acid batteries to the worst lithium ion batteries, the lithiums have over 5x the capacity by volume. Huh. So the Volt has 1/3 the volume of batteries, but 5x the energy per volume... Meaning the Volt actually has more storage capacity than the EV1, by a fair amount actually. And yet, the Volt's pure electrical operating range is only 40-70% that of the EV1.
:rolleyes:

And everybody remembers all the concept cars that actually got into production, that sucked compared to the advance publicity. For example take the Caliber, (Yes I know DCs fault not GMs) as a concept it was seen as the Neon replacement, and they were talking of the high efficiency CVT, so everyone was thinking "hey the Neon gets 30-35 on the highway, this CVT and new motor must be gonna get 35-40... and it went into production and what are people getting?? 25-30!! There have been similar dissappointments with many Detroit concepts turned production models. So, in my mind at least, I read 40 miles range and 50 miles per gallon in RE mode, but my experience of Detroit's concept talk is leading me to expect 25 miles range off batteries and 35mpg..... I can't think of any time a concept has turned out considerably more awesome in production than it was in the daydreams of the publicity people at the time the concept was shown.

I just don't get it. All these complaints apply even more strongly to the Prius, but I don't see many people complaining that Toyota is making it.

Don't get me started on concept cars. I still want my Buick Blackhawk, and I don't care what mileage it gets.

-Jay

Right, but Toyota is already making it, and has been since 1997. Here we are over a decade later, and Chevy is acting like this is some kind of break-through vehicle.

Well, I guess you guys will hate the hybrid that VW is going to make.
https://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/06/vw-rolls-out-a.html
It's my 3000 pound Rabbit with a smaller diesel engine and an electric motor, plug-in hybrid with a predicted range of 31 miles, 22.5% less than the range that GM predicts for the Volt. They claim it will be out for 2010, just like the Volt.

Based on what the article says, I think once the 31 mile range runs out you won't get much more use of the electric motor until you plug it in again, and will be running only on the diesel except after regenerative braking events. Whether or not it's hooked up to a generator, VW won't be able to easily take it out and replace it with other engines, fuel cell, or extra batteries like GM will, because it's hooked to the drivetrain and is used to supplement acceleration (like the Prius does, except switched roles).

Edit: I was wrong. They won't have it out by 2010. From the article:

And after 10 years, how much has the Prius really changed? New body and some updated electronics but STILL no EV only mode that has any sort of practical use. The Volt at least offers that.

The Civic hybrid is even worse. Worse gas mileage then the Prius and it's slower. The almighty Insight you guys worship must have been a hell of a car.

Taking what other manufacturers are offering, I'd say it is a break-through vehicle. You would think that a forum like this where people are constantly striving to get better mileage and provide a cleaner atmosphere for ourselves and others would love a car like this. A company that has made it huge selling SUVs to people that don't really need them are coming out with a car that not only gets better mileage then any other hybrid on the market but also has a plug-in EV only mode you can actually use and all you guys can do is talk crap about it.

Even if someone drives 40 miles to work in a Corolla and gets a Volt that only realistically does 20 miles per charge, they will drive halfway to work using no gas then get 40mpg(being conservative) the rest of the trip(half a gallon). The Corolla would have used a gallon of fuel assuming all highway meaning the Volt puts 10lbs less CO2 in the air each way. If they charge at work they save 20 lbs a day. That's 2600lbs a year or 5200lbs a year assuming they only drive the car 5 days a week to and from work. I'm happy with that.

If you take a place like Las Vegas that gets their power from a hydroelectric plant it's pollution free!

The cynic in me would say that the Volt program is just to appear to make enough nano scale incremental advances to keep the cheques rolling in from the Freedom Car program. Therefore volt is already doing as designed, making GM income.

The entire situation is frustrating being that many of us knew this day was coming. I bought a VX anticipating increased energy costs and haven't regretted it one bit. Car companies are making progress, but are taking their sweet time especially in GM's case.

I suspect the initial version of the Volt will be conservative and hopefully (like the Prius) lead to future improved models. Honestly I don't recommend buying the first production year of any car and in particular this stands true for the Volt.

The weight gains of new cars are out of control. It is one thing to be comfortable, but needing so much space and gizmos seems unreasonable given energy costs. Humans have not increased in size that much since the 70s. I suspect it is a matter of expectations of vehicle space changing as a result of the SUV "revolution" if you could call it that. Safety has played a secondary role and more SUVs on the road have not helped with this either.

I've been keeping an eye on Aptera (www.aptera.com) hoping that they will make their carbon fiber extreme efficiency three-wheeled vehicle a reality. They have a pure electric and a series hybrid in the works and the prices aren't supposed to be too bad. I'm starting to wondering if some of the smaller companies might get it together before the big guys. I suspect we'll be seeing more crazy aero-shaped vehicles like this in the future.

Overall, I think we need to encourage these companies despite some of their efforts being late and slow. We just have to get to the tipping point and the technology is likely to run away.

haha my thoughts too aluminum is and has ALWAYS been more expensive than steel...sure its lighter and rust proof BUT you cannot attach aluminum to steel (by welding or mechanical) or it corrodes...

some people think that cars have had no changes since the dawn of car till now then get in a hissy fit when a new technology, (ie battery/ hybrid) technology comes into play they expect it to be instantly perfect and get a billion mpg, but wait! gotta have fancy seats, power everything, billion speaker radio that can pump out 200 watts, air conditioning (god forbid someone sweats in this country), and who knows what else!

noone would buy the thing if all it had was a bench seat, pedals, and a steering wheel...

sure car companies could be doing much better but gotta admit between the 1980's cars to todays cars theres ALOT of fancy features that people now expect to be on every new car(hell my chevette didnt even come with cupholders, now cars have like 20 of em), so its not 100% the automakers fault. they have to sell cars too...

I think the problem that is more disturbing is not that everybody expects everything from their car, it's that we still don't have 42V electrical systems in our cars, facilitating ELECTRIC Air Conditioning which would have ZERO load on the car when it's not being used unlike the current situation as it stands.

We need 42V electric everything if we plan on reducing the amount of drag on the car, the amount of weight in copper wires running around the chassis and to increase the fuel efficiency of these cars. If we had higher voltage systems and more electric this and that, then all these amenities would be very insignificant in terms of its affects on mileage.

Power Steering=Electric
Power Brakes=Electric
Air Conditioning=Electric
Engine Cooling=Electric (We already have it somewhat)

Also with higher voltage, we could have more powerful starter motors which could instantly turn on the car, on demand when ever we come to a stop, all while not being a hybrid, so to speak. I mean adding 90% of the features a hybrid has such as regenerative braking to a non hybrid would dramatically increase city fuel economy without the large number of expensive batteries.

well if the cars small enough it doesnt need power steering dont need power brakes dont need air conditioning and why not air cooled? (hell VW did it in the 30's)

You've just described the GM hybrid SUV/Truck that failed to sell a few years ago (the market didn't want it), and their "Mild Hybrid" system that's on Chevy Malibus on dealer lots right now for anyone to buy. Is 36v enough for you?

Many small cars come with electric power steering already, including my VW.

Yeah, on the full size trucks the old hybrid system only got 1 mpg better than the stock powertrain. Now with the full hybrid system the full size trucks are supposed to get the same mileage, highway or city.

-Jay

Power steering = Most companies have gone to electric already. Even the Elantra has electric power steering.

Power Brakes = I really hope you are joking. Power brakes can't get much more efficient on a car nowadays than using the manifold vacuum they already use(and have used for decades). Hybrids usually use hydraulic power brakes using the electric power steering pump(not a loss-less system like manifold vacuum).

Air conditioning = Again, the Prius, Highlander, and Camry hybrids all do this. They also use battery pack voltage not 12v. Not sure about Honda.

Engine Cooling = In the Volt (the whole reason this thread exists) if you never use the engine this doesn't matter. I'm not sure what they've used but I don't see them using a mechanical water pump in this car. They may surprise me but that would mean a belt would need used. They'd save not only manufacturing costs but space not having to do that since no other belts will be needed seeing as the car has to be completely functional without the engine.

No I understand completely, unfortunately GM's mild hybrid system doesn't work for **** and or it works fine, it's just that it's a lost cause for a vehicle that is so inherently inefficient. My friend's dad has a chevrolet silverado hybrid and let me tell you, it being a "hybrid" doesn't do **** for mileage.

Well, that's the result when something is built the way you described. You asked for it, GM did it, you still don't like it.

I think you need to check the price on Aluminum vs. steel

Honda insight MSRP was around $20,000 so I don't see the price of aluminum as a factor, at least one that is significant.

Is the insight being produced today? Does a $20K economy car strike you as affordable? Part of that cost was the hybrid system but another significant cost is the specialized aluminum body manufacturing process. When the insight was introduced economy cars were in the $8-10K range.

BTW aluminum is about $1.25/lb and steel is about $0.25/lb right now.

I'd love to have a car made from all aluminum but I acknowledge that it will come at a significant premium.

It was sold through 2006, also the insight is not an economy car, its direct competitor was the prius which its MSRP was around $22k I believe. Being a two door doesn't make it an economy car just like the prius being a 4 door making it a full size sedan..

The Insight was the new CRX. So take the price of a CRX, add 2 to 3 thousand for the hybrid system, and you get an estimate on the 'aluminum preminum'. Civics start around $15k, which would lead to a fair assumption that an aluminum body for a small, 2-door costs at least as much as a hybrid system. Assuming the rumors that Honda was selling Insights at a loss aren't true.

Besides, if working with aluminum was cheap and easy, Toyota wouldn't have stopped at the hatch and hood on the Prius with it.

I don't think the hatch and hood were made of aluminum for FE reasons. I remember my great aunt's old 1988 Lincoln Town Car had an aluminum hood. I think the reason was so they did not have to have a prop rod, or big, heavy springs like were in my 1980 Pontiac to hold the hood up. All the car needed to raise that huge hood was one pressurized gas strut. My guess is the hood and hatch were aluminum on the Prius so that those doors would be easy to lift. The total weight savings on the total vehicle for those 2 doors being made of aluminum is probably not much, and overall has little effect of FE.

Buick Blachawk would be AWESOME.

Aluminum is more expensive than steel, about 5x.

People don't realize the same people sit on car manufacturing boards as on oil company boards. When gas is $10 a gallon, new cars will be getting about twice the mileage they do today, so that the oil companies make the same (or more) percentage profit. If people started screaming conflict of interest, it would force certain executives to resign from one or the other. Trust me, it would be the car boards, NOT the oil boards.

Ford looked into building the Focus entirely from aluminum and it would cost about $50,000 but would get in excess of 50-60 MPG highway.

If I had a grant from someone I would have a CRX rebuilt entirely from aluminum. Think a 1200 pound vehicle about 10% stronger than the original CRX. If it were the same weight, it would be 30% stronger than the original, even more in some places.

And I mean ENTIRELY from aluminum unless heat or safety prevented it.

And that is at todays AL prices. Imagine the price of Aluminum if everybody started making cars out of it. The price would double overnight.

How would building the Focus from aluminum so dramatically increase its highway mileage?

It wouldn't much...if you drove on a completely flat road. But there aren't many of those. Indiana, which seems essentially flat, in reality still has a slight incline. And my MPG is always better going one way vs. the other.