A nickel in my pocket? "Lobrid"
 

So Pablo's plugged in tonight with a new engine block heater. The dealer has to remove a sub-frame member to install it because the manufacturer doesn't want to add $5 to the manufacturing cost. So it's 3.5 hours labour making for about a $400 total all in. Youch, but I knew that going in. $1 per watt ironically, as confirmed by the WattsUp meter.

Anyway, I'm hoping to save 13 cents worth of gas each weekday morning by spending 8 cents worth of electricity to do so. My mother used to mention pennywise - pound foolish or something like that, well this certainly is. I reckon the payback is about 40 years assuming 75% seasonal usage.

Anyway, tonight there's no timer involved so it's 32 cents and 11,000 BTUs of warmth for the engine. Watch me get the typical 18 LHK on my first leg tomorrow and see no difference. :rolleyes:

Now that canadians are car shopping in the cheap old US you can use the EBH as a selling point, :p

I know folks around here like engine block heaters cuz it makes their mpg numbers look better, but just so we are aware:

11,000 BTU/day would take the tesla (or forkenswift) about 11 miles.
In environmental terms it is an additional 1.35 tons of Co2 a year.

The water temp was 40°C (104F) this morning when I started it up. Overnight it only went down to around 12°C (54F) so of course 8 hours was total overkill.

Leg A was 16.3 LHK (wasn't as good as I hoped although traffic gap dependent)
Leg B was 10.5 LHK (better than expected)
Average was 12.3 LHK.

What numbers do you usually see before the EBH?

1.35 tons seems a bit steep - perhaps reasonable though...

11,000*365 = 4.015 million BTU

Anthracite coal = 227.4 lbs of CO2 per million BTU
= 913.011 pounds CO2 or roughly 39.7 gallons of gasoline burned in a warmed up car (about 22lb/gallon)....

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Without sources - purely anecdotal.... I've noticed my car to take about .5 gallons to reach operating temp (within 10 degrees F) in my winter time. If I drove every day - that's a cost of 182.5 gallons of fuel or ~4015 lbs of CO2.

So the question is... Does using 11,000BTU/day save 41.5 gallons of fuel annually? allow me to warm up within 0.39 gallons?

Intuition tells me.... Maybe. Bear in mind that I'm in a southern climate :p

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That assumes 100% of your power comes from anthracite coal....

If we assume 100% comes from NG(methane)
Methane = 115.258 lbs of CO2 per million BTU
= 462.76 pounds of CO2 or roughly 21 gallons of fuel

21 gallons of fuel = 462lb CO2
4015-462=3553lb CO2
3552/22=161.5gallons
161.5/365=.44 gallons per day to warm up to break even CO2 wise.

This seems more feasible for me....

Remember, that' anecdotal for someone that lives in a warm climate...

If you get your power from nuclear, hydro, etc. etc. - uncontrollable environmental impact is further reduced (a lot).

Coal BTU numbers etc. came from here

Yah, I need to look a little more closely at the kwh to lbs of CO2 conversion factor. It might be more like 1.5 lbs CO2 per kwh to the socket in the wall in the states, more like .5 lbs CO2 per kwh in ontario.

Are you assuming that the .5 gallons of warmup does not include any driving?

Im thinking on the warm days you will see the advantege of preheating in just a hour or two. Eaven in the cold cold nights, I bet most of the heating will happan in just a few hours. Any more then that is just keeping the water warm.

Hmm, I'm still not convinced that there is an "advantage", especially on warm days.

If you start your car and go then it will warm up without using any extra electricity. If you start your car and let it sit there till it is complete warm then you should be beotch slapped.

I'm ignoring the monetary costs here (including $400 installation fees) as an "advantage".

So the question is:
Does the energy used by the heater offset the drop in mpg you see during the first couple minutes of driving? Note: You only need to drive enough to get the engine up to the temperature where the heater would have for this comparison.

I'll tell you once fall returns...

That's driving.

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The conversion using kWh *should* yield the same results as using BTU's.


So converting 1 million BTU to kWh = 293kWh which means that's:
0.77lb CO2 per kWh anthracite coal
0.39lb CO2 per kWh methane NG

which, I will admit does seem low, but I couldn't tell you for sure....

For comparison a gallon of gas has 125,000BTU = 36.6kWh which means:
.546lb of CO2 per kWh

Given the numbers above, that does seem reasonable - it's between coal and NG.

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But all that said -- you're probably right about warm days... I'll pay attention the next time I drive to see how much fuel it takes to warm up given the temps outside haven't yet gotten cold (but it's a far cry from the 90 degree summers :p).

Of course, I've always been under the impression that power plants are more efficient (in both emissions and production) than our ICE engines :p I wonder if anyone has done a study on engine wear in the winter with and without a heater....

https://www.opg.com/power/images/pie06.jpg

Fossil's a small part of the mix here...


Does the energy used by the heater offset the drop in mpg you see during the first couple minutes of driving?

That's the question... although, I'll include the full morning commute in my analysis since it's pretty short and engines probably keep heating up for 30 minutes when it is cool out even though I'm driving far less than that. When it's cool, not even cold, I'm barely at operating temp by the time I get to the train station.

First morning at 0?C
 

Outdoor temp 0.7?C - full frost

Initial SG water temp 29?C (2? hours @ 400W @ $0.10/KWH = $0.10)

After starting SG water temp 26?C

After 2? KMs to school dropoff full 80?C temp

So had full temps for next 5? KM trip to train station


Normally in this situation, I'd have run the engine 3 to 5 minutes while scraping the windows clean (only needed a quick wipe and there was enough dash heat not to have the wipers make it worse).

Rich idle is 3.5 LPH (vs 1.3 LPH warmed). So @ 3LPH/60min x 3min x $1 per Litre = $0.15, less the $0.10 to power the EBH and I've made my nickel before driving up the street! :p

Well...don't forget...you are also saving wear and tear on the engine startup by the motor being warmer, your catalytic will last longer...and you will have toasty warm feet sooner (hard to put a price on that one). :D

What are the environmental costs of a car wearing-out and either needing an overhaul or replacement?

Oh yes... the catalytic converter will really benefit, and therefore the resultant emissions. Good point!

The Accord's getting an EBH soon as well. That could cause big changes because we've always backed in so that we can drive out. I drive in now since I can coats ICE-Off down our little street and roll up to the house - then roll back down to the street in the morning and start up there and drive up the street.

SWMBO may be reluctant to change habits...

SWMBO usually is...

favorite quote from mine: "so can you do stuff to my car to make it all efficient and stuff?"
me: "no" (something about the adjusting the nut behind the wheel)

Nice reporting, 2ton.

Another point to consider on the GHG scene in Ontario: fossil fuel generation primarily suppors peak consumption. You're warming your engine in off-peak times using base load generation, which is first nuke, then hydro.

Also, you have the choice of going 100% renewable, non-nuke if you want. But then there goes your nickel ;)

I LOVE the separation of oil and state! :thumbup:

2TonJellyBean, is your heater the kind that installs at an engine block freeze plug - and heats the engine coolant directly?

Bruce, yes...

It would be nice to develope a solar panel that heats the Radiator Fluids and/or Oil while your vehicle sits at work...would be basically free after the initial cost. Then for night time you could run a battery to the same solar panel to heat thru the night. Also during the day, the extra battery could be recharged by its own solar panel to get ready for the night.

Needed: Two Solar Panels and One Deep Cycle Battery for homebase.

Wouldn't it be nice if the engine block could be super-insulated and still be serviceable?

Velcro ;)

Just insulate the engine compartment with spray foam insulation and close it off with a belly pan on the bottom. It would help retain more heat and make the block heater more efficient. Actually the ideal way would be a an inline heating element that could heat the coolent quickly just as you are about to start the engine which minimizes the wasted lost heat during the night. Even one that super fast heated the coolent after you started it up while still plugged into the Grid - bring coolent temp up to 150 or more in a few minutes . . . hummm would take a few kilowatts of power. Maybe a big insulated water coolent tank inside the vehicle where there is room and better insulation plus the leaking heat would warm up the cabin too. Man I tell ya with the 50 and 60 degree temps here in Newport RI I already see much slower heat up times in my xB. Time for a 1/2 radiator block.

Use PCM Phase Change Material. I figured (guessed) 64lbs of paraffin melting/freezing at 133F would heat a 300lb engine to like 120F from 60F. Somebody with more engineering time and resources please adjust these figures.

Anyway, put this inline with the coolant hose and waste coolant heat would be stored for a faster warm-up. Taking advantage of the heat of fusion (phase change) of paraffin should yield a pretty inexpensive heat storage device.

Prius has some kind of vacuum lined tank to store the heated coolant for faster warmup. So I've heard.

Yep :thumbup: In a thermos type bottle.

Unfortunately, it will work both ways... If you've got hot liquid paraffin - it will stay around it's freezing point of ~56C for a long time as it slowly freezes due to a high latent heat (heat required for a phase change). BUT, if it's allowed to completely cool - all of that heat for the phase change will be lost to the paraffin heat sink. Taking that much longer to warm up....


Autospeed had an article awhile back about using a paraffin thermal heat sink on an inter cooler. But they cautioned that it was only suitable if you didn't go beyond 56C for long periods of time.


From the angle: How to make this work.... You need some logic, and some control. Place the paraffin heat sink on a bypass line with a valve. If the engine is cold, and the heat sink is <56C - close the valve. If the engine is cold and the heat sink is >=56C - open the valve. If the engine is at operating temperature and running - open the valve. If the engine is off - close the valve (to prevent thermal siphoning - also depends on physical location).

Okay, I know it's more complicated - but it resolves the issue of longer warm ups on complete cold starts... You can likely store a lot more heat in a smaller volume compared to the Prius thermos system too :thumbup:

Imagine an asbestos wrapped block... it'd heat up quick and stay warm many hours between drives.

The foam idea would be fun... the blaze would look great on youtube! ;)