$20,000 gift for new car
 

My parents are generously buying me a new car. I commute 160 miles total each day and my 1998 Civic CX currently has 588 K on it and they worry about me in it I guess. Any how they want me to get a new car (not a used car) and
I want to get one that will last and will give me the lowest total ownership cost.
If I were to get a Prius or any car where the total outlay is over $20k I would need to finance since I have minimal savings which I don't want to put into a car. So any advice on how to project total ownership cost over say 10 years?
As for the car to purchase I like hatchbacks but I will keep my cx so I have that. The Prius is interesting but for me expensive. I am happy with my Honda.
I read that the 2012 Civic HF will only be available as a sedan. Any clues about the prices for the 2012 civics? Any suggestions on other cars? Thanks.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

You can get a brand new Chevy Cruze Eco for about $20,000.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

I imagine that you'll want to stick with Honda and probably with a car similar to your old Civic. What about a Fit? You can get a well-optioned uplevel Fit for $20,000.

Since you're planning to keep it for a long time, you need to consider issues that I think some people ignore, like comfort...if you're not 100% perfectly comfortable then you may be miserable after a few years. It does open up cost-effectiveness for things like a set of winter wheels/tires though!

Projecting 10 years is tough because it's tough to project markets and your own conditions. Here's some variables to consider (probably obvious, but it helps to make a list):
- Fuel economy (obviously)
- Costs of parts and repairs (if you want you can also try to apply your own ideas of which cars are likely to need more or less repairs)
- Costs of regular maintenance; calculate based on the recommended schedule only if you would actually use it, otherwise calculate based on how you'd maintain.
- Costs of irregular maintenance - mainly what I can think of is tires. As an example, 195/65-15 tires are cheaper than 245/40/18 tires.
- Accessories such as a second set of wheels for winter tires.

Edit: One thing you don't need to worry about with such a long ownership is resale value.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

for 20K, i'd just buy a used certified civic that comes w/ a warranty!

here's a quick search for $15k and under so you could save $5k for tax, tag, title, tires, girl freinds, or a big party...https://www.autotrader.com/fyc/search...=1299180041908

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

I'm actually getting ready to buy a 5 door yaris with a stick shift and it is going to run me $13,700. it gets good mileage and has the toyota symbol on the front. it is low enough on their lineup not to have the gas pedal issue and at that price, I should be able to get out the door under $15,000 after tax, tag, title and what not.

personally, I would stick with honda or toyota. ironic considering I have a chevy right now but still.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

+1 on this.

www.fueleconomy.gov gives annual fuel costs for car models. The calculations can be adjusted for actual/expected price of fuel, total annual miles, and driving mix, highway or city.

Is your driving mostly highway or city by the way? For new cars, I can't think of any others that can match the Prius on fuel economy and usability. But it starts outside your price range. If your miles are mostly city, where its mileage is best, though, it is worth a look. If used is possible, the gen2 is just as good. I've heard it has a higher economy potential for a hypermiler than the new one.

The Insight II is a little cheaper, but smaller, and owners are reporting higher than EPA, which doesn't test cars in eco mode, mileage.

Ford has made improvements, so the Fiesta and new Focus might be worth the look. The SFE package Focus(only available on the SE sedan) is rated 28city/40highway.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

there's a LOT you can do with $20K. If you like the Hondas, A base Insight will probably run slightly more. Honda also has a new Civic HF (41 mpg highway) that will be coming out soon as a 2012 model. (this spring?) I love my Fit, and the mileage is always better than its measly 33 mpg highway rating, even with my non-hypermiler wife at the wheel. Of course, Beef is correct in that a Yaris has excellent bang for the buck. There are too many others to list...

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

You should look at the 2011 Hyundai Elantra, which promises 40 mpg in all its trim levels. The Yaris and Fit aren't as nice, and don't match the Elantra's fuel economy ratings. For that matter, the Elantra beats the current Focus and ties the much smaller Fiesta and the Cruze ECO in combined mpg estimates.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

The Elantra is a good choice. Hyundai has really turned up the heat over the past couple of years. I still prefer the fit's interior and packaging, but the Elantra has great numbers and sweet styling to boot.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

You've got 588,000 miles on your Civic and you're asking our advice? Seems like you've mastered the recipe for car value. ConsumerReports lists 14 cars in their Best Vehicles Under $20,000 list. Honda's Fit is priced only $30 above the lowest-price Scion xD. The Fit is their Top Pick for Budget Car as well as ranking first in Least Expensive over five years. They rate it as returning 33 mpg in their own mixed driving testing, just one mpg off the top non-hybrid, non-diesel competitor.
From their current April issue:
A low sticker price doesn't mean a car will be a good value in the long run. It could turn out to be a big disappointment and a waste of money because of depreciation, reliability, and other factors.
We think real value is getting a lot for your money. Small, affordable cars are often considered value choices, but again, the numbers don't always add up. At $16,000, the Honda Fit is the top value of more than 200 vehicles in our analysis; the similarly priced Chevrolet Aveo is the worst value in its class, with a low test score and below-average reliability. The difference in owner cost could be $3,000 over five years, the typical period most people keep their cars. Our value scores the Fit, with almost twice the value of the average model.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...view/index.htm

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

I agree with this assertion. I have 3 family members with Fits, and they've all been outstanding. I have one family member with an Aveo, and that thing has shed parts quickly enough that they parked it and became a one-vehicle family.

Car and Driver magazine recently conducted a comparison test between the Fit, the Ford Fiesta, and the Mazda 2. While the Ford and Mazda both have higher EPA mpg ratings than the Fit, their real-world driving mpg figures were far below their EPA estimates (32 and 33 mpg, respectively). Meanwhile, the Fit achieved 34 mpg, which is actually above its EPA highway rating. This is not a fluke. Check out my (non-hypermiler) wife's gaslog (Fruit Punch Jelly Bean). We average 40 mpg in fair weather, and I have seen 45 mpg on a tank. Winter weather and fuel has dropped our average, though. :(

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

My commute is about 45 miles on Interstate 78 in PA along the Blue Mountains as they are known, hills really but definitely some climbs. The other 35 are mostly stop and go along Rt 309. I guess I'm going to get an automatic so it can be driven by other family members when necessary. The Fit is more my style but I've read that the Civic is more comfortable for a long commute. I have a civic hatch now. Wish they were still available here. How do you rate the Fit's comfort, Fetch? Is it hilly where you are? How does it pull? I looked at the Elantra and it is pretty nice. Being it's a new design concerns me. The nu engine as it's called, has a cast aluminum block, wonder how that will hold up? It also has a timing chain which is good maintenance wise, would save a good bit of money there over the long haul. Does the Fit have cruise control with the automatic, I'll have to check into that. I'm thinking I should get cruise because I have an old bicycling injury that has my butt acting up so maybe an automatic with cruise will help me out there. The Chevy Cruze Eco with cruise control as an option is $20k - too much. My son had a 2000 Focus and it had so many cheap parts it turned me off, but then again I am considering the Elantra and they made some bad cars in the past too. My wife drives a 2009 Elantra and she's somewhat happy with it, the only problem we had was the alignment was out from the gitgo so 2 tires wore a little unevenly. I say she's somewhat happy because she wanted a sports car, Nissan z whatever it is, but we got a good deal with the cash for clunkers program and Hyundai was offering great incentives back then and she doesn't work so Elantra to the rescue. If I do get an Elantra she will want it. Thanks everyone for the input.

I will look more into the Fit but right now I'm leaning Elantra or Civic. It's really disappointing there aren't more affordable alternative choices available yet, but it's coming.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

The Elantra has 2" more front legroom, 2" more front shoulder room, & 2" more front hip room than the Fit.

We owned a 2003 Focus. Ford made massive improvements in the Focus beginning in the 2003 model year, which have carried over into company philosophy since.

My family has owned 5 Hyundais since 1994, and they've been remarkably reliable. Every manufacturer uses aluminum blocks now. Hyundai's Theta engine used since 2004 in the Sonata was its third aluminum engine design.

I took a look at Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, and Hyundai Elantra recalls for 8 year old cars, since someone had claimed that's the age where Honda reliability shines. The data didn't support that. There were 18 recalls for 2003 Civics, 5 for Corollas, and 6 for Hyundais. Similarly, Toyota led with the fewest class-action Corolla lawsuits, followed by Hyundai, and Honda trailed both badly. Civic and Accord automatic transmission problems were common enough to warrant class action lawsuits.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

The Fit's front seats are really comfy on the long haul. The manuals have a driver-side armrest. You can get them from the dealer for automatics. The best testament to their comfort is that in October, I drove from Indianapolis to Kissimme, FL straight through. I stopped in Kentucky to fill up, since I did not do so prior to leaving home. I did not stop again until I needed gas again, which was about 8 hours. Overall, the trip was about 15 hours or so, and I still felt great afterwards. After one day in Florida (wedding), I made the return trip in another 15 hours or so. I'm 5'10", and I really like the interior layout. It is rare for me to really like the relationship between the seat, pedals, steering wheel, and shifter. I hated the shifter placement in my 1999 Civic Si; when I could reach the shifter, the pedals were way too close. In the fit, I feel like Honda got it right. But hey, try one out and see how you... ahem... "fit."

The Fit is the quickest car in the subcompact class. It outran the 2 and the Fiesta in the C&D comparison test (0-60 in 8.3 seconds; the 2 was 9.1 and the Fiesta was 10.1.)

The Fit's front seat space is 51 cu ft (2: 51; Fiesta: 50). Rear seat: 40 cu ft (larger than the Civic's, I might add; 2: 36; Fiesta: 33). Cargo volume: 21 cu ft (2: 13; Fiesta: 15). Cargo volume with seats folded: Fit: 57 cu ft. (2: 28; Fiesta: 26). I don't have figures on the Elantra, but is is a mid-sizer, which is a class-and-ahalf up on the Fit.

I don't have a lot of hills in my area, but I drove it through the Smokey Mountains, and it did just fine in 5th gear. I also got mileage in the 38-44 mpg range, too (see my gaslog for October 14-17).

Note that the Fit automatic has the paddle shifters. I drove one of these, and it actually drove really well. The EPA mileage rating is the same as the manual.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

Most of the Civic recalls were for exterior lighting sold as replacement parts. A couple were for issues on the CNG model. The only recalls of note were on the airbags and rear window seals on the coupes (06-07?)

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

There was an ignition interlock recall in there, but you're right about most of the recalls being aftermarket lighting actually made by other companies. Remove them, and Honda is on par with its competition. I didn't read the details at recallowl.com.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

If I had $20,000 to spend I would buy a early 2000 model Honda Accord Vtec I4 with a manual transmission.

I have a 2001 model and it gets 33 mpg on the highway plus has the leather seats and sunroof. If you are driving that far every day why not be more comfortable?

https://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdppri...id=&advanced=y

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

I think the OP was looking for a new, or late model used car, not an 11 year old model.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

Yup, right there in the first post:
...don't look a gift horse in the mouth. The car is a gift and the giver wants it to be brand new. We should all be so lucky!

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

I only knew because I looked them up a few months ago. I must have forgotten the interlock recall, or it was added after I visited the site.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

Well think how much gas the difference in $20,000 and the cost of a late model car could buy? :)

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

However, the purchaser of the car wants the recipient to have a new car. One can easily get 10-15 years of trouble-free, reliable use out of a well maintained new vehicle. While possible with a >10 year old used vehicle, one does not know for certain how well maintained, the vehicle was over those years, nor does the purchaser of a vehicle know for certain if the vehicle was abused or not.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

The main problem I have with the Fit is its buzz-bomb gearing. My xB is the same way. It runs 3000 rpm @ 60 mph, v. our ('06) Elantra's 2200 rpm @ 60 mph. I'll bet the '11 Elantra's turning under 2000 rpm @ 60.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

I do hate the gearing in the manual version. The Fit really needs a 6-speed. The auto is has a slightly taller final drive ratio and a much taller 5th gear.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

I imagine that if they put a 6 speed in they'd do the same thing VW does - just make the ratios closer, leaving the low and high gears the same.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

That's a pity. Even the Fit has plenty of torque to overcome the gear spacing. But I know you have a point.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

Took a test drive in the Fit and agree that at 60mph the rpms are annoying so that is out although I like it (where has the cheap civic hatch gone?) The 2011 civics don't offer affordable traction and stability control. I'm leaning Elantra for lack of affordable choices though still undecided. What do you folks
consider the best transmission for best mpg with the 2011 Elantra?

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

A heads-up hypermiler will always do better with a manual transmission. Even if you don't EOC, automatics lose tremendous amounts of fuel with undesired torque converter slippage, downshifting, and attendant high rpm operation. Plus, the AT option will cost you $1000 that you can use for other purposes. 6 speed MT FTW!

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

I enthusiastically second the manual transmission vote...the only downside, for fuel economy, is that (mostly foreign) automakers tend to gear their manual transmissions too short. It's probably done so that magazine reviewers and people test-driving don't complain of a lack of power at highway speed.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

OK. Please explain how or if this supports your statement, holycow, I don't grok this. From the Elantra brochure:

Final drive ratio: MT : 4.333, AT : 3.065

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

Well, what you posted supports it quite strongly, but it's also only half of the story. Check out the ratios in the transmission, especially high gear.

4.333 is a very short ratio, 3.065 is pretty tall. Assuming you have the same transmission, the 4.333 ratio will result in higher RPM.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

The 2011 Elantra specs are pretty spotty. Here's what I think they are:

2011 Elantra AT final drive ratio 3.065 X 6th gear 0.778 = 2.38
2011 Elantra MT final drive ratio 4.333 X 6th gear 0.633 = 2.74

That's a 15% gearing difference between the AT and MT versions. If the AT turns 2000 rpm to go a particular speed, the MT has to turn 2300 rpm to go the same speed.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

That's not too awful. Others tend to be more severe. It helps that they put a decent 6th gear in the MT, even better than the one in the auto.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

My MT xB suffers a similar 15% compared to the AT xB. The MT version of my wife's '06 AT Elantra also has a 15% gearing disadvantage. My MT Sentra only had a 4% gearing disadvantage to its AT counterpart.

My xB is a buzz-bomb, churning 2600 rpm at 55 mph, and 3000 rpm at 60. The 2011 MT Elantra's OA 2.74 top gear ratio shouldn't be that bad, compared to my MT xB's 3.53. The AT xB's OA top gear ratio is 2.91 by comparison, and the AT '06 Elantra has an OA 2.68 ratio.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

My '99 Civic Si was around 3300-3350 @ 60 mph. I got used to it after a while, but I don't think I could go back.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

Why are your parents concerned about your Civic CX? Just because it has a lot of miles on it, doesn't make it any less safe. If you're having issues with the car and you still like the vehicle, just fix the thing. The car has excellent crash test marks and its side impact scores is nothing to scoff at. The 90s civics really are the perfect car which is why I bought my '98 Civic last year. Buying a new car isn't going to necessarily mean more reliability as newer cars have more finicky and sensitive computers. Old computers are nearly almost always more robust than newer ones because they couldn't use as small of a micron process and therefore they were more expensive at the time.

There is a reason why NASA still uses Intel 486 processors in space, it's because the newer processors are on smaller micron processes and are affected by cosmic radiation.

If I were you, and you still like the vehicle, I'd take a few thousand and just spruce up the vehicle so it's like a new car again.

I'm suspicious of your parent's intentions but if they think they're getting a significantly safer vehicle, I have to say they'll be disappointed. The crush zone of newer vehicles is shorter and they compensate for that with supposedly more advanced airbags which at this point are in dispute with the NHTSA as to whether they're working as effectively as they should be. The Civic is rated around 4-5 stars and "acceptable" by the IIHS. To give you an idea, "good" is the highest IIHS rating, the equivalent of "5 stars" by the NHTSA, "acceptable" = 4 stars, "average"= 3 stars, "below average" = 2 stars and "poor" = 1 stars. However, keep in mind the IIHS test is newer and is an offset crash test so it's more severe. Some cars are 5 star rated (full front width of car) but will get a "poor" rating on the IIHS test because they weren't designed with offset crash testing in mind. The way they rate cars hasn't changed since their inception which is why nearly every car made today gets 4-5 stars, acceptable-good, while cars 20-30 years ago, only a handful got a 4-5 star rating or a "poor - average" rating. IIHS testing was first conducted in 1995 while the NHTSA testing has been going since 1979.


Finally, any civic you buy today is going to get worse fuel economy than your current car unless you buy the Prius. The car you have is fine and the most logical and cost effective thing you can do to your car is to give it a nice refresh. $20K to buy a car when the car you have is suitable is just throwing money away.

Reading some of your posts, I see that you've noticed that most fuel efficient cars today are "buzzy".. They do that so people don't have to downshift while cruising on the highway, problem is that makes them noisy and it wastes lots of fuel. The civic you have is going to be much quieter because of the taller ratios it has. Nearly all the new fuel efficient cars today are "buzzy" because of the reason above. If they paired these cars with a taller transmission, 50mpg would be a cakewalk in these cars.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

As a parent, the obvious answer is reliability. That's what a car with 588k miles lacks, what new cars have, and what I want my kid driving in on his 160 mile daily commute. Modern cars' comfort, safety, etc. are added bonuses. Patching the old beater does not improve the current situation any more than slapping a band aid on a damaged knee.

IJP is wrong in so many ways. The buzz-bomb cars are a few sporty manual transmission models like the Fit and Yaris, not "most fuel efficient cars today."

For fuel economy, the 1998 Civic barely beats the 2011 Civic (only by 1 mpg in ciy and combined EPA - highway is the same 34 mpg), but it falls far short of the 2011 Elantra's 40 mpg highway, 2 mpg better city, and 3 mpg better combined ratings. Plus, all the modern competition is quieter, more comfortable, and more refined than the old CX. Even the outdated Corolla, riding on a 6 year old platform, beats the '98 CX on city, highway, and combined EPA ratings.

Last, the '98 CX had a 4.058 final drive ratio and a .702 5th gear ratio, for an overall 2.85 overall top gear ratio. That makes it buzzier than the 2011 Elantra's 2.74.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

Patching? How is spending a few grand on an older car be considered "patching"? There are only so many things that can go wrong with a car and if the car has never been in a wreck, all you're doing is replacing wear items. If you're doing the work yourself, you could fully restore a car with just $1000.

I'm not 100% of the reason why, but I think the civics of the 90s with their taller ratios simply got better fuel economy in real world driving than the newer civics, even though the newer ones are only 1mpg less in the EPA test cycle. The OP's civic is an excellent candidate for a transmission swap if he so desired to do so which would boost his fuel economy significantly.
As for the '98 Cx gear ratio, funny thing, it actually has a final drive of 3.772 just like the Civic HX making it "less buzzy" than the manual transmission DX/LX civics with their 4.058 final drive. I'm not sure why this isn't reflected in the EPA test cycle but it'd be useful if the OP could confirm the RPM his car is running at because a taller final drive I'd imagine would have some sort of an effect on the EPA fuel economy numbers if they actually tested for it. However OP choose to have an EX transmission in his civic, if he put in a CX transmission like he should, he'd be getting much better fuel economy numbers than he is getting right now. If I were in the OP's position, I'd rather save the $20K and use it for something far more useful than a depreciating asset like a car.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

NASA has upgraded to pentiums in the past few years. I thought the reason for using old stuff was product history, and they simply don't trust electronics they haven't been around for at least a decade. Better to use something with an extended history so all the quirks and issues are own before shooting it off into space where you can't fix it if it goes wrong.

I think most of us would have far better uses for $20k, but it sounds like the OP isn't getting $20k, he's getting a new car.

It isn't just the mileage on the car, it's the age of it in the Rust Belt. 12 years of driving through salt slush is going to add to the regular wear items needed. The Pennsylvania roads also don't help.

Re: $20,000 gift for new car
 

The reason I'm keeping the EX tranny is reliability, it still pulls a ton. I like to work on my car but not when stressed out because I don't have a backup car and that is exactly what happens when doing major work with a short time frame. I won't get money, just a car. An Elantra mt with air (something I don't have now) for $16,600 or thereabouts I feel is a good deal. I will be keeping the cx for winter and to keep the miles down somewhat on my new car. At 60 mph I am at 2550 rpm (ultra-gauge, no tach on the cx.) I also have a 1991 LX which my sons drive. (129k right now.)