The engine's response to HHO injection

[GasSavers_kyle]

So, I've been reading a lot trying to figure out as much as I can about HHO. I'm finding a ton of info on how to build an HHO generator, and feel pretty confident that I'll be able to make a really simple one as many of you have done here. But I've been having a hard time finding any data on WHAT is happening in the car, in real world testing.

For fuel injected cars, is anyone watching their air-fuel ratio to see what it is actually leaning out to? Does anyone know if the computers have an upper boundary that the computer will not pass in air fuel ratios?
How about operating temperatures? What do the O2 sensors see? Has anybody had to fight with the car because it can't figure out what is going on? (ie the car is trying to richen the mixture because o2 sensors are receiving off the chart readings, etc?)

[maxxgraphix]

Most likely because it doesn't actually do anything. If your generator actually works. Distalled water + Sodium Hydroxide + electrical current = Brown's GAS and it made a usable qty of volume to inject into the engine's intake, after that?

Funny how this idea is all over the place, yet I haven't seen any real documentation on the effects of internal combustion by mixing gasoline and browns gas.

[GasSavers_RoadWarrior]

What I get out of this...
http://www.psfc.mit.edu/research/pla...DF/dan_cps.pdf
work by MIT (P.16 onward) is that a 25% mix of hydrogen (made from gas) makes the vehicle burn 30% more efficiently.

So... if you use a source that doesn't use 25% of the fuel to make the H, then you should be doing even better.

[maxxgraphix]

If (big if) you could generate a substantial amount of Browns Gas from the electrolyte without killing your battery then inject the gas into the intake perhaps one could increase the combustion efficiency. Browns gas combusts at a higher temp and very rapidly. This would cause predetination and blow holes in your pistons or burn the valves. So you would need to reprogram the ECU for leaner mixtures and less advanced timing. Of course this causes a loss of power. Perhaps the addition of HHO can make up the power for the leaner mixture. There has been some research on this.

[GasSavers_kyle]

There are a few guys around here that are putting a lot of time into designing and building these HHO generators, but I haven't been able to find any results from these generators they've built. Are they even testing them in an engine, or just measuring output of the generators?

The only results I find on the internet are from people trying to sell me something.

Some of these companies are claiming 1.7L/min which is very impressive. So if you take the exaggeration coefficient of .5, that provides .85 L/min, which might be a "substantial" amount.

I think a reasonable goal would be to replace 25% of the air in the intake with HHO. If we can figure out how much a small motor inhales when cruising down the highway (from the MAF) we should be able to see if it's even worth doing. if .85L/min >.25*total MAF rate, then it is probably worth pursuing.

I think it will get relatively complicated though, at least with a fuel injected engine, as the ECU is always going to try to keep you a/f at 14.7. The o2 sensors won't be reading enough o2, and would start injecting more fuel, which would probably have the opposite affect of what we're looking for. so a guy would probably have to come up with a way to trick the computer by showing it signals from the 02 sensor that allows the ecu to lean out the condition? i don't know.

[flapdoodle]

Originally Posted by kyle

There are a few guys around here that are putting a lot of time into designing and building these HHO generators, but I haven't been able to find any results from these generators they've built. Are they even testing them in an engine, or just measuring output of the generators?

The only results I find on the internet are from people trying to sell me something.

Some of these companies are claiming 1.7L/min which is very impressive. So if you take the exaggeration coefficient of .5, that provides .85 L/min, which might be a "substantial" amount.

I think a reasonable goal would be to replace 25% of the air in the intake with HHO. If we can figure out how much a small motor inhales when cruising down the highway (from the MAF) we should be able to see if it's even worth doing. if .85L/min >.25*total MAF rate, then it is probably worth pursuing.

I am testing in a vehicle, and am not selling anything. You can follow along on an almost daily basis here: http://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html

I am with you on the exaggerated claims of others. One thing I have found is the operating temperature of the generator is of utmost importance. By making careful measurements I found the output varied 37% in just a 22 degree F span.

May I ask where you came up with the 25% figure? In MHO, a reasonable goal would be to keep adding hydrogen until the cruising speed FE reaches a point of diminishing returns. Once enough people have done that with various size engines, we can be relatively sure of how much would be required for any given engine size.

[maxxgraphix]

If an HHO generator actually can add enough volume to the combustion to get a more complete burn, then the ECU will think your running lean. Then of course it will dump more fuel into the system to keep the EPA and OIL Barrons happy.

So, you would need to hack your ECU and remap the fuel and timing to lean out the mix and somehow regulate the HHO flow to keep from going too lean and frying the motor or total loss of power.

I did it! It works great and my Honda now gets 112mpg!

Originally Posted by kyle

I think it will get relatively complicated though, at least with a fuel injected engine, as the ECU is always going to try to keep you a/f at 14.7. The o2 sensors won't be reading enough o2, and would start injecting more fuel, which would probably have the opposite affect of what we're looking for. so a guy would probably have to come up with a way to trick the computer by showing it signals from the 02 sensor that allows the ecu to lean out the condition? i don't know.

[GasSavers_RoadWarrior]

I was figuring it meant 25% of the fuel by weight... now if at 60mph a car does 30mpg and gas weighs ~6lb a gallon, that's around 12lb an hour or 5.5ish kilograms. Hydrogen weighs 0.08988 g/L, so to replace 25% of 5.5 with H2.. or 1.375Kg of it.. you need ~15,000 lph or 250 litres/min... damn that sounds like a lot..

But then figure that a 2.0L displacement engine at 3000RPM with the throttle wide open (zero vacuum) should be sucking 3000 litres per minute. Though part throttle in vacuum it will be sucking a lot less. Say it's pulling air at only 3 psi, (12psi of vacuum) then it's about .12 of that I think ~360litres/min which would mean by volume you'd need 90 lpm... but at 15:1 ratio by volume, then about 6 lpm....

Well enough of that, it's making my head hurt... but seems that cells making only a couple of litres a min are probably only really giving peak efficiency at idle and low city speeds... and getting higher output would benefit highway use.

[flapdoodle]

I calculated the amount of power out of curiosity. Using the best available commercial H2 generator, making 90 liters a minute would require 21.6 KW, or the equivalent of 29 horsepower. At the rate we are paying for electrical power here, 8.7 cents that would be $2.51 a minute running it off the electrical mains.

Actually, the idea of using hydrogen is to add just enough to make the gasoline fuel air mixture burn more completely. And it does that so far in my car. It even sounds and smells different. Pedestrians walking turn and look to see what is coming since they have never heard a car like it before.

I am in the process of doubling the amount of H2 I was using to see how it affects the car. Since I can cut cells out and monitor the current, vacuum and temperature as I drive I can get a fairly accurate indication of how much I need. Will post it here.


A little off topic... Boeing tested the Worlds first hydrogen powered airplane yesterday
http://www.physorg.com/news126437366.html

[maxxgraphix]

There's been a few Honda guys try this over at http://forum.pgmfi.org/. None have had any success. One of the ideas for the electric was to use an alternator without the voltage regulator. Seems one of the members has a pile of fried Accord alt's with bad regulators.

The only hint of success what the Honda Dio videos. That's a moped. You can have 30% change in FE with a 5mph wind.