My HHO Generator

[nsgrossman]

so thought....i think i might put in circuit breakers rather then fuses when i do my full install in my car... thoughts?

[someguynamedmat]

First post, but I saw this thread and am planning on building an HHO cell after a vacation. I have seen on some sites various build methods, but have one question for the OP- Have you tried lowering the voltage to say 1.2v? Anything lower isn't going to create the reaction, but having such low voltage should reduce the energy needed for the reaction, and potentially reduce the amperage needed at 12v. Someone let me know if I am wrong, it's late and I have a head cold cold, but shouldn't 12v@10amps give you 1.2v@100amps resistance being equal? From what I have studied the voltage isn't the answer, it's the amperage draw. Higher amps means more generation, but with less voltage it will be less taxing on the electrical system. At the same time, using a PWM along with dropping the voltage might be an interesting test. If I am wrong, please let me know and let me know where I am wrong. I am very interested in this subject and have seen some insightful posts and would love to be fossil fuel free by the years end if at all possible!

[JV-Tuga]

I would appreciate your assistance. I had been reading about this for a while when a thread as a Subaru Forester forum started to address this technology. The latest guy to reply is being pretty condescending. In my limited knowledge I have read about exactly the method of lowering voltage but boosting amperage but I am not technically qualified to fully appreciate all that is involved or to be able to refute this guy's textbook arguments. Your assistance would therefore be appreciated.

Here is the post in question.

[JV-Tuga]

As much as I find his tone condescending I must hear what he is saying. The guy refers to the alternator having a built-in limitation, which stabilizes the energy output at about 12v. What if the alternator were altered so that that it generates whatever the engine rotation produces, without limitation or with a higher ceiling than before (i.e., remove the regulator)? I mean higher engine output would equal higher energy production and the drag of the alternator on the engine remains about constant, right? If that holds true, you could then have the alternator connect directly to the HHO generator and then to an external regulator that feeds and protects everything else in the car, as usual.(?) In theory, at least, based on what little I know it seems that with that setup when engine revs higher, demanding more fuel, the HHO generator follows suit and ups the production without disturbing the other components.

Am I thinking/talking nonsense here?

[nsgrossman]

correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in most cars the alternator is disengagd when the battery's charge reaches a certain point, otherwise the energy is wasted. Removing the regulator is really just turning your car into a generator for your HHO system?

Personally my biggest concern is how to produce the best results, regardless of the power needs (obviously they should be minized eventually, but at worst if I make a system that draws too much power but works well I'll add a seperate battery circuit that I'd charge from home.)

[hdenter]

I saw your video and I think you are off to a good start. A couple of thoughts though, Hydrogen is very explosive, you might want to think about moving the generator out of the interior or trunk and into the engine compartment were there is more air movement to disipate any gas that might leak and I would definately recomment that you not have any other electrical devices near it that could provide a loose spark. It would also shorten up your delivery hose. Good luck!

[Rower4VT]

HHO generator companies say you'll increase gas mileage 10-45%. If this were true then you'd be use A LOT of hydrogen, a lot more than you could produce from an HHO generator. Even if you optimistically estimate that you can get 2 times the miles out of a kilo of hydrogen than you could out of gas, and then assume that the hydrogen is only accounting for 20% increase (lower than the average estimate from HHO companies) in your fuel mileage, so we'll say conservatively that you're getting an additional 5 miles from the hydrogen per gallon of gas consumed...Let's assume a vehicle that gets 25mpg. That 5 miles, once again "conservatively" would use 1/13th of a kilo of hydrogen. If you were to drive 25 miles round trip in a commute then you would need 1/13th a kilo of hydrogen to increase mileage 20%. A 1/13 kilo = 0.08 kilos. There is about 0.42 kilos in a gallon of water. So a quart would offer you about one-and-a-quarter "commutes" and that is if you could use every drop of water in the HHO generator (given a 1 qt. capacity generator)...which you can't. I don't have an HHO but I'm assuming that the electrodes need to stay covered with water to work, so if you have a 1 qt. HHO then the usable amount of water is well less than a pint, which would only allow you that 20% increase in mileage for about 10-15 miles before you have to fill up the water tank again. If you question my numbers and findings, then pick up a chemistry book, do some research, and find out for yourself. How often do you have to refill a HHO? If you have to fill it everyday, how much water do you add? Using my "optimistic" numbers, see how much mileage you could theoretically get from the hydrogen you produced. Once again you can only get .42 kilos or .92 pounds of hydrogen from a whole gallon of water.

Here is the kicker argument: The perpetual motion machine. If indeed you are getting more energy from the hydrogen you produced from the HHO generator than you put into it, you have to assume that most engineers/physicist/chemist are wrong when they say that it takes about as much energy to get the hydrogen as you get out of it when you use/burn it. Let's assume they are wrong and that all these scam artists are right. SO then we are getting more energy out of the hydrogen than it takes to get it. If this is true then why not put a bigger alternator on our engines, fill a tank in the trunk with water, and increase our mileage by 80%!! These scam artists says we get more energy out of the hydrogen than we're putting into it, so this must work!

If anyone has the science or absolute proof that this could work, then PLEASE tell me. I would love to win a nobel prize and put a 20 gallon HHO in the back of every American's car. Our dependence on foreign oil would all but go away. This is great!!

Disregard the sarcasm if you can. And please provide alternative "numbers" and "scientific proof" if you can. Ultimately, I'm just trying to save you money from a scam that simply is as impossible as a perpetual motion engine.

[doug2168]

Originally Posted by Rower4VT

HHO generator companies say you'll increase gas mileage 10-45%. If this were true then you'd be use A LOT of hydrogen, a lot more than you could produce from an HHO generator. Even if you optimistically estimate that you can get 2 times the miles out of a kilo of hydrogen than you could out of gas, and then assume that the hydrogen is only accounting for 20% increase (lower than the average estimate from HHO companies) in your fuel mileage, so we'll say conservatively that you're getting an additional 5 miles from the hydrogen per gallon of gas consumed...Let's assume a vehicle that gets 25mpg. That 5 miles, once again "conservatively" would use 1/13th of a kilo of hydrogen. If you were to drive 25 miles round trip in a commute then you would need 1/13th a kilo of hydrogen to increase mileage 20%. A 1/13 kilo = 0.08 kilos. There is about 0.42 kilos in a gallon of water. So a quart would offer you about one-and-a-quarter "commutes" and that is if you could use every drop of water in the HHO generator (given a 1 qt. capacity generator)...which you can't. I don't have an HHO but I'm assuming that the electrodes need to stay covered with water to work, so if you have a 1 qt. HHO then the usable amount of water is well less than a pint, which would only allow you that 20% increase in mileage for about 10-15 miles before you have to fill up the water tank again. If you question my numbers and findings, then pick up a chemistry book, do some research, and find out for yourself. How often do you have to refill a HHO? If you have to fill it everyday, how much water do you add? Using my "optimistic" numbers, see how much mileage you could theoretically get from the hydrogen you produced. Once again you can only get .42 kilos or .92 pounds of hydrogen from a whole gallon of water.

Here is the kicker argument: The perpetual motion machine. If indeed you are getting more energy from the hydrogen you produced from the HHO generator than you put into it, you have to assume that most engineers/physicist/chemist are wrong when they say that it takes about as much energy to get the hydrogen as you get out of it when you use/burn it. Let's assume they are wrong and that all these scam artists are right. SO then we are getting more energy out of the hydrogen than it takes to get it. If this is true then why not put a bigger alternator on our engines, fill a tank in the trunk with water, and increase our mileage by 80%!! These scam artists says we get more energy out of the hydrogen than we're putting into it, so this must work!

If anyone has the science or absolute proof that this could work, then PLEASE tell me. I would love to win a nobel prize and put a 20 gallon HHO in the back of every American's car. Our dependence on foreign oil would all but go away. This is great!!

Disregard the sarcasm if you can. And please provide alternative "numbers" and "scientific proof" if you can. Ultimately, I'm just trying to save you money from a scam that simply is as impossible as a perpetual motion engine.

i don't know "JACK" about chemistry nor do i wish to because it would hurt my head. my question to you is this, "what about all of the people out there on the internet that make posts regarding increased MPG?" i really don't think they're all crack smokers.

[Rower4VT]

Originally Posted by doug2168

... "what about all of the people out there on the internet that make posts regarding increased MPG?"

What about the people that experienced no or negligible gains, and why has no reputable company/firm publicized the same results? If this is so great and real, then CNN would have done a story and Walmart would sell the kits.

The amount of "bubbles" formed by an HHO generator (really an H2+O2) generator)is extremely minimal compared to the volume of air flowing through the intake. There is NO scientific basis for this. I know I know, "but there are all these people getting great results". Firstly, these HHO generators do not produce enough "fuel" to increase mileage based on H2 burning by itself. If it is really true that it's not the fuel aspect of HHO, but that HHO simply helps the engine burn the gasoline more efficiently, then how does it work? How?

Of all these wonderful scam sites selling HHO (H2+O2) generators, not one of them explains the science. Many even promote IRS tax refunds that are NOT viable, and some promote false stories like "South Korea mandates all trucks to use HHO generators". The falsities, lies, and lack of scientific knowledge associated with HHO generators just supports the fact that it's all a scam. I suppose many people still believe in pyramid schemes also...but no, no, they're not a scam!

[hdenter]

Hey there doug2168 and Rower,

First of all, doug, the ignorance is bliss aproach will just get you in a whole lot of trouble and expence. If you are not going to take the time and energy to learn about what you want to do to your car, you had better wait until a major manufacturer develops a system that is idiot proof for any car. Every engine in every different car (even from the same company) is different. The same basic longblock can be built and tuned for each different aplication. Thus, one system and/or combination of components and settings will work well for one car and engine and not necessarily for any other. Each year/make/model would need its own combination of components and settings. You or your mechanic would need to tune your car and the system that you choose and had better know what you are doing.

Now Rower, lighten up!. No one is trying to run on h2 alone. Gasoline engines waist a lot energy in the form of unburnt fuel and fuel that is burnt too late or in the exhaust system. The idea is to use h2 to help burn more, or better yet, all of the gasoline fuel so that better efficiency is achieved. The theory is sound. H2, with its lower burn temp and faster and more powerful burn, could help spread the ignition flame in the cumbustion chamber faster so that more gasoline is ignited and used for more power and better efficiency. What these people, and soon myself, are trying to do is find a way to do it that is cost effective and safe. That no major company has tried this is no supprise. Between the liabillity for damages or injuries that could be cause by a mis-hap and the vast number of different engines out there, I would not expect anyone with a lot of money to lose to want to risk it promoting a system at this time. There are just still too many un-answered questions. Sure, there are a lot of hucksters selling snake oil out there. People like myself will need to spend a lot of time doing research and reading about what others are doing and have done before puchasing or building a system and then installing it safely. Ultimately, it may very well be that no one ever comes up with a single system that works universaly on any car. But a lot of people might find ways to get their individual cars to run better. If enough people do find success, then maybe a larger company might get involved. Maybe a few fools will lose a bit of money, but, maybe we might find a way to save a lot of people a lot of money on gas and help out the environment at the same time. Instead of dragging things down, get involved. Do your own research on the how and why. While I am interested in this idea, I do not think all the questions have been answered. I am at the point where I will make a generator and start to test for myself how to get the best production. Then it's on to solve demand/production qestions.

Wish me well and good luck to both of you!