Is HHO the way to go?

[rangerbentman]

I just had my Subie in for it's 24000 km warranty check and was told ANY thing I do to the engine voids the warranty. Also the service manager talked about someone doing his own install of a hydrogen boost to his car and melting something, although he did add that the install was not done right. So I guess I can start with a pro kit and not homemade after my warranty expires in 2.4 years. There is still hope.

[ZugyNA]

Originally Posted by flapdoodle

I have gathered the parts I need for a test HHO generator. Now I think I should examine when I want the unit powered. These are my thoughts...

HHO desirable
Cruising, vacuum less than say, 18 inches.

HHO undesirable
engine off!
Idle (zero miles to gallon anyway)
brake on.

Anyone have other suggestions?

BTW, I wasted a lot of time searching for stainless strips only to find Ace Hardware has them for $.99-1.29 depending on thickness.

Been thinking and researching myself. Looks like the smaller the displacement of the engine...the better your chance with the simpler straight DC types.

Need to do everything possible to increase efficiency...HHO produced per amp used.

Could use a microswitch on the throttle cable and the ignit switch to have it run only above idle.

What kind of design are you using?

[cfg83]

flapdoodle -

Originally Posted by flapdoodle

I have gathered the parts I need for a test HHO generator. Now I think I should examine when I want the unit powered. These are my thoughts...

HHO desirable
Cruising, vacuum less than say, 18 inches.

HHO undesirable
engine off!
Idle (zero miles to gallon anyway)
brake on.

Anyone have other suggestions?

BTW, I wasted a lot of time searching for stainless strips only to find Ace Hardware has them for $.99-1.29 depending on thickness.

I would read this dude's newsletters :

Diesel Dynamometer Testing Analysis - September 2007
http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/September%202007.html

... Our Model 20 is designed to produce enough hydrogen for even the largest gasoline engines including those of 8 liters displacement. So those who are installing and operating on a one liter Geo Metro engine may be only preventing improved mileage when producing hydrogen at 20 amps.

Recent changes in installation instructions provide for installation of a throttle position switch or intake manifold vacuum switch that would only turn the hydrogen generator on during acceleration and high cruise throttle settings. This will avoid most of the negative savings operations. Adjusting the vacuum switch to optimum setting should practically eliminate the negative savings zones. ...

CarloSW2

[flapdoodle]

Originally Posted by ZugyNA

Been thinking and researching myself. Looks like the smaller the displacement of the engine...the better your chance with the simpler straight DC types.

Need to do everything possible to increase efficiency...HHO produced per amp used.

Could use a microswitch on the throttle cable and the ignit switch to have it run only above idle.

What kind of design are you using?

I made a page here: http://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html
The switches you suggested seems like the most logical way to go.

[flapdoodle]

That is very impressive and encouraging. Thanks!

[cfg83]

Hello -

Here's another thing that talks about hydrogen being researched/funded for improving diesel emissions and fuel economy :

SDTC Provides C$48 Million in Funding for Clean Tech Projects; Li-Ion Battery for Hybrids Among Them - 7 July 2007
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...ovides-c4.html

Diesel emissions reduction. NxtGen Emission Controls Inc ( http://www.nxtgen.com/ ). is leading a consortium that inlcudes Engine Control Systems Inc. and Mullen Trucking LP.

NxtGen Emission Controls is developing diesel emission reduction technology using hydrogen produced from diesel fuel and engine exhaust to reduce particulate matter and NOx emissions while enabling engine manufacturers to increase fuel economy. NxtGen?s components can be retrofitted onto existing diesel trucks or factory installed on new vehicles. The project involves retrofitting the emission reduction system onto medium and heavy-duty commercial trucks to validate performance and durability in daily over-the-road operation.

CarloSW2

[ZugyNA]

Originally Posted by flapdoodle

I made a page here: http://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html
The switches you suggested seems like the most logical way to go.

Might check out this forum thread...the guy with the spiral cells. I was thinking of using 2 or 3 of them in series with a third as a bubbler...and using manifold vac to add air. Seem to be easy to make at least and have low operating temps as a series.

http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic....r=asc&start=15

As far as the efficiency charts at hydrogen-boost...this guy claims he almost doubled a mopeds mpg. He also uses them with large displacement engines. I don't think these are all that efficient...just easy to make.

Thinking that you have to balance load (amps) vs HHO output...during cruise conditions for best mpg? With the amp load...you'll need HHO at idle...probably need to boost the idle speed as with AC?

Possible that not all that much HHO is needed to boost mpg during cruise conditions? These simpler cells are going to put out way less HHO than 1 L / min.

http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Ot...&DrillDown=yes

> bottom of page

NOTE: I would have a good active antivirus prog running as you follow the HHO links. A free prog called Spyware Terminator with the Web Security Guard is a good idea too. I had both progs go off on one site...had good info too. Guy is no longer active...skunks got him?

[flapdoodle]

Many thanks to all of you for your help. The smooth idle is certainly desirable. Since my test generator has two sets of electrodes (five amps each to give the target 10 amps at cruising), one could be tied to the ignition through a relay and the other powered through either a vacuum switch, or throttle switch.

I am keeping the log updated as I go. Many surprises. One is that antifreeze and NaOH don't seem to go together well, and I thought it best to switch to a Mason jar because of problems with adhesives.
http://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html

[ZugyNA]

Some quoted info:

"If you are designing a good cell you may as well make it Efficient.
This means Low voltage across the plates.... between 1.24 V and 3.0 V.

Know that 1.24 V will be very slow production and thus require HUGE plate
area for only small gas Production. but it will get COLD as it runs.

At about 1.7 V it starts to very slightly warm when run with Big current
and anything greater than say 3 V will lose lots of energy in heat.

There is a maximum current allowance for efficiency too,
best to be near 0.25 A per 25mm Squared of plate Reacting surface.
( we are talking about one reacting surface - in mine this is 83mm x
365 mm = 30,295 mmSq. 30,295/625 = 48.4 lots of 0.25 A = 12.1 A)

[guessing that he means calculating the surface of one of each pair of equal plates?]

But you can go up to 0.5 A per 25mm Sq for little loss."


My opinions from reading:

* the best efficiencies are found using a high plate count series cell...but they are not simple to make.

* your 2 series / same electrolyte bath cell is probably running at 6V across the plates

* four of the independent spiral cells mentioned above run as a series would have 3 V across the plates...you'd need to adjust the surface area if using 4 in series?

* the most efficient electrolyte is NaOH...not sure how they handle freezing

I've already got too many things going, but if I were to give it a go I'd try maybe 5 tall peanut butter type jars (plastic if possible with plastic lids) using NaOH...4 being spiral cells..1 being a bubbler. I'd carefully calculate the total surface area needed...set these in a wood box. Keep the areas of collected gas to a minimum. I'd keep the amps under 12 or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide

But you don't play games with HHO...not a project for Beevis and Butthead for sure. I might try it sometime in the future.

At least you've actually made one.....

[flapdoodle]

I was curious about the claims that temperature reduces efficiency with 12 volts/cell (regulated).
time amp temp ?F ~bubbles./minute bubbles/min/amp
6:25 8.9 88.3 140 bubbles 15.7
6:27 9.8 96.8 160+ 16.3+
6:32 10.1 100 180 17.8
6:37 10.9 110 190+ 17.3+

With a rise of 22 degrees, the production went up 10%
After this, I have a hard time believing the claim of reduced efficiency for higher temperatures.

At 5 volts regulated:
1.8 amps 105 deg. 61 bubbles/min (accurate)

This makes it look like 2 jars in series would give 122 bubbles @ 3.6 amps versus 140 bubbles @ 8.9 amps for a single jar.

Adjusted for the difference in voltage, two jars would give 144 bubbles at 3.6 amps. or something like 27% better efficiency at least with these plates and electrolyte.

Feb 2, 08
Two Mason jars in series, 12 volt regulated, 1/2 teaspoon of lye to 24 ounces deionized water.
1.76 amps 104 bubbles/min 59.1 bubbles/min/amp
(About 76% more bubbles for the same amperage as the previous test)


Antifreeze
I dumped one jar out and poured half of the other one in it. Carefully measured 3 ounces of ethylene glycol into each along with 1/2 teaspoon more of lye. The (deionized) water level was brought back to the original 24 ounce mark on the jar. This means each cell now has 3/4 teaspoon total lye and 12% ethylene glycol.

2.20 amps 168 bubbles/min 76.4 bubbles/min/amp
This is 4.8 times the hydrogen production per amp of the original jar.
I have full range litmus paper on order so the Ph can be measured.