HAI Experiment

[GasSavers_BEEF]

jay,

so the vacuum holds the door closed and the thermostat opens and closes (varies) in order to keep the air temp at a predetermined temp. I like that. it really is the best of both worlds.

you could further heighten the affects if you could change the thermostat in order to increase the temps more but then you would have to retune the carb for that. I saw a buddy of mine do that to his chevette. it was not a fun experience. he plans on fuel injecting it soon so he didn't put a lot of effort into it.

[Jay2TheRescue]

I just got a PM from another member that pointed out that the factory WAI helped prevent the carb from icing up due to the venturi effect cooling in the throttle body.

[GasSavers_NovaResource]

Originally Posted by Jay2TheRescue

I just got a PM from another member that pointed out that the factory WAI helped prevent the carb from icing up due to the venturi effect cooling in the throttle body.

Yes, that is true. And it's also why modern fuel injected engines have engine coolant running through the throttle body. Not to cool the TB but to warm it to prevent icing.

[R.I.D.E.]

Todays drive;

Exact same route as yesterday.

Ambient temps identical.

Wind practically non existent, where yesterday it was a 15-20 MPH help on the first half.

No direct WAI, but a 40 % radiator block. Incidentally the Insight draws its air from behind the radiator, so it has factory WAI if you want to call it that.

Yesterdays average was 74.7 MPG. I did not include the initial warm up in yesterdays trip on purpose.

Total distance for both trips with combined mileage for both days.

73.3 MPG for both days

Yesterdays average

74.7 MPG for the identical trip without the initial warm up, which was included in todays trip. Two 1 hour cool down cycles at the trip mid point.

Difference in mileage

1.4 MPG

Total fuel use

784/733 gallon=73.3 MPG for 78.4 miles

The return trip today was affected by three traffic lights that caught me on the yellow light and forced me to waste my inertia. I estimate that alone caused me to loose 1 MPG for the combined two days of travel.

In fact the cost of the three forced stops was greater than any individual warm up cycle.

Look at the first half of yesterdays trip to see the difference in mileage due to the tailwind on the first half and headwind on the second.

Much greater than the cost of the second days additional warm up cycle.

WAI behind the radiator works under light loads, but the amount of air inducted at higher throttle positions rapidly removes the heat available and gives you colder air automatically under sustained hogher throttle positions.

That is the way my insight was designed, and it still is the mileage champ of any automatic transmission vehicle ever sold in the US.

The hotter the air you induct the lower your effective compression at WOT.
Cold air for performance gives you the best horsepower. Warmer air gives you the best efficiency.

Ignition timing is automatically adjusted to most advanced point the engine can handle without preignition, the sensors are much more sensitive than the human ear, in vehicles equipped with knock sensors.

To assume that warmer air causes higher NOX emissions just doesn't hold water as a logical argument. Peak combustion temperatures are a function of the power produced by an engine, which also causes preignition. Less dense warmer air creates better fuel atomization as well as slightly lower compression as well as lower pumping losses.

Manufacturers choose more power because most customers want more power. That sells cars.

When the public demand as well as federal regulations demand better mileage, then manufacturers will produce what sells.

Warmer return coolant to the engine is a factor in improved summertime mileage, as well as warmer air intake.

Any one who has driven a performance car knows the power is greater in winter than in summer, and correspondingly the mileage is lower.

Alfa Romeo built a 90 cubic inch grand prix racer that produced 390 HP in 1950, the year I was born. It got 2 MPG.

How much fuel does a top fuel dragster consume in a single pass?

Gallons.

Economy versus power is the trade off. If you want power, the price is mileage. Choose one or the other.

Given the same fuel to air ratio, more fuel and more air equals more power.
The problem is 67% of your fuel energy is wasted (EPA data) so more power means less economy.

I believe the Toyota Prius is the only car they make with the thermos bottle to hold hot water for the next cold start. My buddy replaced one in a wrecked Prius he repaired. The part costs $1000 retail. I was thinking about using the damaged on on my car, but the damage was to severe to trust it.

Getting great mileage in any car involves a lot of small factors that add up to a total improvement. My car is rated at about 46 MPG average (new ratings). The old ratings were 56 highway and 57 city, on fuel that did not contain ethanol. All the fuel where I live contains ethanol, so there is a disadvantage in any direct comparison with non ethanol fuel.

All that being said, the greatest part of my significantly higher average mileage is in driving style. Unlike some members, my priority is fuel mileage above all else. Comparing one percentage over EPA to any other is irrelevant unless the mileage acjieved is under identical circumstances. If I lived in a sparsely populated area without traffic lights and I could drive at any speed I chose I could get 90 MPG average, but I am in no hurry to get anywhere. Retired from the rat race I see no point in voulentarily joining it unless it is an emergency. In those circumstances I would just grab the Benz.

Gains of super high percentages over EPA require great determination and discipline as well as sacrificing time for saving money on fuel. The cumulative effects of the efforts of the members of this forum is to provide real innovation and empirical evidence to show people who are interested how to screw OPEC.

If my Insight was a manual transmission I could top 120 MPG under ideal circumstances. I just don't want to trade off my situational awareness for the difference in mileage.

Thats dangerous when you are surrounded by people who drive like idiots.

regards
gary

[GasSavers_maximilian]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

To assume that warmer air causes higher NOX emissions just doesn't hold water as a logical argument.

That's weird, I thought you were the one who said it might raise them. I must've misremembered. Too lazy to search and it'd be pointless anyway.

[GasSavers_NovaResource]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

To assume that warmer air causes higher NOX emissions just doesn't hold water as a logical argument.

Sorry but that is true. The higher the combustion chamber temps, the higher the NOx emissions.
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2004/techtips.htm

[spotaneagle]

#
[PDF]
BURNER DESIGN PARAMETER FOR FLUE GAS NOx CONTROL
Tests on gas turbines
developed for the automobile in the early 1960's
indicated that NOx emissions were lower on warm,
humid days as opposed to cold, dry days. Also, in the
case of gas turbines, water is injected to limit the
formation of the NOx in the combustion process.
johnzink.com/products/burners/pdfs/tp_burn_dez_params.pdf

also maybe you think nox would be too high on a warm intake system cause nova
misquoted this article where the cause of high NOx was a bad 02 sensor causing this car to run lean..
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2004/techtips.htm

NOx is generally the result of really high temperature exhaust(my edit: caused by clogged cat, not letting exhaust gas escape, not a warm air intake). Being the son of a mechanic, it is difficult for me to say what is beyond the scope of most individuals. I would richen the mixture slightly to lower temperatures, or advance the timing slightly. I think that will cool the engine down enough. A 30 minute run on the highway straight onto the test dyno would likely help if you can arrange it.

http://ask.metafilter.com/39612/How-...-NOx-emissions

wouldnt a warm air intake reduce exhaust temps somewhat by pulling air over the exhaust???

The technician installed a new O2 sensor and started the vehicle. Within a minute or two we had proper closed loop operation, and when he test drove the vehicle, he had vacuum to the EGR valve and the NOx failure was repaired.

running lean will cause high nox

if youre worried about nox, then DONT drive a deisel






Quote:
Originally Posted by R.I.D.E. View Post
Better mileage=lower emissions.
Not always. If too lean you get higher NOx emissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.I.D.E. View Post
Warmer air=better atomization
That was true for carbureted cars that didn't atomize fuel well. That's not the case with fuel injected car where fuel atomization is much better.

also:
70 C is close to 160 F. They found that past that knock could become a problem and BSFC would go back up a bit.


and i believe this works better in MAP systems and not MAF systems

[R.I.D.E.]

Originally Posted by spotaneagle

#
[PDF]
BURNER DESIGN PARAMETER FOR FLUE GAS NOx CONTROL
Tests on gas turbines
developed for the automobile in the early 1960's
indicated that NOx emissions were lower on warm,
humid days as opposed to cold, dry days. Also, in the
case of gas turbines, water is injected to limit the
formation of the NOx in the combustion process.
johnzink.com/products/burners/pdfs/tp_burn_dez_params.pdf

also maybe you think nox would be too high on a warm intake system cause nova
misquoted this article where the cause of high NOx was a bad 02 sensor causing this car to run lean..
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2004/techtips.htm

NOx is generally the result of really high temperature exhaust(my edit: caused by clogged cat, not letting exhaust gas escape, not a warm air intake). Being the son of a mechanic, it is difficult for me to say what is beyond the scope of most individuals. I would richen the mixture slightly to lower temperatures, or advance the timing slightly. I think that will cool the engine down enough. A 30 minute run on the highway straight onto the test dyno would likely help if you can arrange it.

http://ask.metafilter.com/39612/How-...-NOx-emissions

wouldnt a warm air intake reduce exhaust temps somewhat by pulling air over the exhaust???

The technician installed a new O2 sensor and started the vehicle. Within a minute or two we had proper closed loop operation, and when he test drove the vehicle, he had vacuum to the EGR valve and the NOx failure was repaired.

running lean will cause high nox

if youre worried about nox, then DONT drive a deisel






Quote:
Originally Posted by R.I.D.E. View Post
Better mileage=lower emissions.
Not always. If too lean you get higher NOx emissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.I.D.E. View Post
Warmer air=better atomization
That was true for carbureted cars that didn't atomize fuel well. That's not the case with fuel injected car where fuel atomization is much better.

also:
70 C is close to 160 F. They found that past that knock could become a problem and BSFC would go back up a bit.


and i believe this works better in MAP systems and not MAF systems

As the son of a B17 pilot, that does not make me a qualified B17 pilot spotaneagle.

You still seem to have this propensity to inject words into my statements to try to slant the meaning.

Warm air reduces NOX
Better mileage reduces NOX.

Never said anything about running lean, so you need to stay within the contents of my quote or your priorities become obvious (trying to refute my statements for whatever reason).

In fact if HCCI is ever developed to the point of practicality, then your assumption about lean mixtures causing NOX would also be WRONG.

LEAN MIXTURES AND POOR ATOMIZATION CREATE NOX. HCCI addresses incomplete combustion under lean conditions by thoroughly emulsifying the mixture, while virtually eliminating NOX.

That's a lean mixture without excess NOX. In fact virtually no NOX.

Get it right son.

Now lets look at warm air induction. Take it to the reverse extreme, very cold air. As incoming air temperatures drop, fuel atomization is affected. Think 40 below 0, or even lower. At some point in lower temperatures the fine droplets of fuel injected into the engine will not completely vaporize and incomplete combustion will occur. Since incomplete combustion occurs at any temperature (demonstrated by the gains in efficiency of HCCI and the significant funding and research in developing practical HCCI systems) YOUR assumption that lean mixtures directly affect NOX is also flawed.

Lean mixtures and imperfect homogenization of the mixture create NOX. HCCI clearly proves that lean mixtures alone do not cause NOX spikes. Lean mixtures combined with imperfect homogenization do cause NOX increases.

Do the necessary research, and then refute my statements, or try just presenting the facts and let the readers draw their own conclusions.

regards
Gary

[Jay2TheRescue]

Originally Posted by BEEF

jay,

so the vacuum holds the door closed and the thermostat opens and closes (varies) in order to keep the air temp at a predetermined temp. I like that. it really is the best of both worlds.

you could further heighten the affects if you could change the thermostat in order to increase the temps more but then you would have to retune the carb for that. I saw a buddy of mine do that to his chevette. it was not a fun experience. he plans on fuel injecting it soon so he didn't put a lot of effort into it.

Yes, there is a vacuum actuated thermostat mounted inside the air cleaner assembly. It allows vacuum to pass when the temp is cool, and shuts off the vacuum when it gets too warm. When operating properly it should cycle the damper open & closed to regulate a somewhat constant temperature.

-Jay