Why the Civic VX is a superior highway FE machine

[krousdb]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

When you did the Insight marathon, were you able to pulse in lean burn mode? Would the VX?

No lean burn with P&G, the O2 sensor and cat never get warm enough. As I said in this thread:

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=1193

It takes 30 sec or so to get lean burn back after a glide.

[The Toecutter]

Unfortunately, a lot of EV builders/owners don't report battery costs in their cost/distance calculations. Batteries are consumables in EV's - analogous to having to replace your ICE car's gas tank every 20-30k miles, at a cost of roughly $900 (in the case of the above-pictured Metro with twelve T-125's @ $75 ea.)

Whereas the cost of gas to go 20-30k miles in a VX @ 75 mpg @ $3/gallon is $800 - $1200.

Of course it's never that cut and dry (and I didn't account for either electricity or ICE maintenance). But you get my point. EV's aren't as cheap to own/run as would appear at first glance.

Even factoring in periodic battery replacement, it is not at all uncommon for EVs to reach cost parity with their gasoline counterparts at under $2.00/gallon gas. The most important factor is properly designing your EV so that your commute isn't deep discharging the battery pack and shortening its cycle life, and selecting a reasonably priced battery.

Brian Methany had an electric Chevy S10 with 120 miles highway range. His pack was large enough to where it lasted ~45,000 miles, and had ~$2,000 cost. I did a little research and estimated that the cost parity with the gas version of the truck was about $1.60/gallon, and he provided a similar figure in the comments section of an EV World blog a long while back.


A study by Cuenca and Gaines found that if EVs were mass produced, cost parity with comparable gas powered cars would be around $1.30/gallon gas factoring in battery replacement(NiMH or lead acid). This was in the 1990s.

[Sludgy]

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

Even factoring in periodic battery replacement, it is not at all uncommon for EVs to reach cost parity with their gasoline counterparts at under $2.00/gallon gas. The most important factor is properly designing your EV so that your commute isn't deep discharging the battery pack and shortening its cycle life, and selecting a reasonably priced battery.

Brian Methany had an electric Chevy S10 with 120 miles highway range. His pack was large enough to where it lasted ~45,000 miles, and had ~$2,000 cost. I did a little research and estimated that the cost parity with the gas version of the truck was about $1.60/gallon, and he provided a similar figure in the comments section of an EV World blog a long while back.


A study by Cuenca and Gaines found that if EVs were mass produced, cost parity with comparable gas powered cars would be around $1.30/gallon gas factoring in battery replacement(NiMH or lead acid). This was in the 1990s.

Lead acid batteries don't take deep cycling very well. Deep cycling causes PBSO4 (which is created on discharge, and is needed to regenerate PBO2 and Pb at the anode and cathode on charging) to fall out of the plates, reducing capacity over time. Lithium electrodes are not immersed in liquid and don't have this problem, so they theoretically last much longer. Some lithium manufacturers are claiming over 2000 cycles at 80% depth of discharge.

Lithium battery technology and production capacity is advancing so fast that we should see lithiums in EVs and HEVs and PHEVs very soon. Toyota is looking at lithiums for the PHEV they promised.

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

What size tires do you have, what are your gear ratios, and by chance do you have a power curve for your engine?

If I had to guess off the top of my head, I'd say 140 mph. But I don't know whether your gearing would really allow that.

My tires are 175/70/13, my gearing is whatever is stock on the CX, and the power curve is whatever is stock for the ICE in the DX.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by Sludgy

Lithium battery technology and production capacity is advancing so fast that we should see lithiums in EVs and HEVs and PHEVs very soon. Toyota is looking at lithiums for the PHEV they promised.

This is getting way OT from why the VX is a superior FE highway monster, but...

Where has Toyota promised a PHEV? Last I read, they were only "investigating", and were still reluctant to pursue it due to battery cost/performance.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by krousdb

No lean burn with P&G, the O2 sensor and cat never get warm enough. As I said in this thread:

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=1193

Ah yes. Apologies for my non-existant memory.

Apologies for my non-existant memory also.

[The Toecutter]

Lead acid batteries don't take deep cycling very well. Deep cycling causes PBSO4 (which is created on discharge, and is needed to regenerate PBO2 and Pb at the anode and cathode on charging) to fall out of the plates, reducing capacity over time. Lithium electrodes are not immersed in liquid and don't have this problem, so they theoretically last much longer. Some lithium manufacturers are claiming over 2000 cycles at 80% depth of discharge.

Lithium battery technology and production capacity is advancing so fast that we should see lithiums in EVs and HEVs and PHEVs very soon. Toyota is looking at lithiums for the PHEV they promised.

With a pack sized for sufficient range, a lead acid EV won't see many deep discharges, perhaps once every month or two. But you are correct in their intolerance to deep discharges. Sealed lead acid batteries only have about 150-200 80-100% deep discharge cycles or so.

Lithium batteries see their capacity degrade about 2-4% per year if they are properly managed during charge and if they are kept from being able to overheat. In extreme cases, this can be 20% per month if left unchecked. The Li Ions used in the Tesla roadster should have about 500 deep discharge cycles of 80-100%. A Li Ion pack in an EV would last about 7 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.

Ovonic NiMH last 1,750 cycles to 100% discharge according to UC Davis. Cobasys provides a more conservative 1,200 cycles to 80% discharge. Nickel-based batteries last for ****ing ever!


I suspect a VX converted to battery power and aeromodded to hell may be able to do 120-150 miles oer charge on 1,300 pounds of lead acid batteries. This would be a great platform for an EV. It has battery room, is low weight, has decent GVWR, plenty of aftermarket body parts for weight reduction, and is a relatively simple platform.



If I had a VX, I'd consider running a diesel in it. Gasoline to fuel a car like this is an injustice. Either way, the VX trumps the Metro, hands down. krousedb getting 70 mpg with one, without ignition off, is damn impressive.

[1993CivicVX]

My VX is healthy and normal afterall!?!?!? What do other VX owners think about this. Do you notice this?

Originally Posted by that long article on the VX

Some drivers also noted occasional engine "stumble", or
hesitation, during quick acceleration in lean burn operation (Keebler 1992b). This
hesitation occurs as the engine adjusts to a lower air/fuel ratio. All but one Automotive
News reviewer believed that this effect would not adversely influence the average driver's
perception of the vehicle's performance, and the reviewer who found the stumble
unacceptable was a driver who admittedly preferred high performance vehicles

Well I'll be a horse's hoof.

[1993CivicVX]

Which is more efficient in the VX: to coast in gear with the engine on at 1000rpm or to put it in neutral and coast? I sometimes feel like the car goes farther in gear than it does in neutral. Is it powering the car along while in gear at 1000rpm when the foot is off the gas pedal?

[GasSavers_BIBI]

Originally Posted by 1993CivicVX

Which is more efficient in the VX: to coast in gear with the engine on at 1000rpm or to put it in neutral and coast? I sometimes feel like the car goes farther in gear than it does in neutral. Is it powering the car along while in gear at 1000rpm when the foot is off the gas pedal?

I don't think that its good for the tranny to be at 1000rpm in gear, yes the VX is doing good at low rpm, but below 1400 I don't think its good on the long therm on the tranny. Any thought on that?