Unbelievable

[GasSavers_RoadWarrior]

I quite like the battery idea because in my concept of how HHO works, it looks like city mileage could take a hit, though useage at idle might not be too bad, unless you're making a LOT of HHO, so having "battery backup" for city useage looks optimal. In my useage patterns, I could use maybe half an hour of battery reserve, if I only use 20A then a small 10AH deep cycle gel cell would be good, actually you can get 10Ah NiMh D cells these days, not sure how fast you can charge or drain them though.

Originally Posted by Jay2TheRescue

EDIT: I looked into thermoelectric generators. There is a quite common one used in boiler controls. The downside is that it only generates 750 mv, and costs $70. 16 connected in a series and strapped to the cat would generate the voltage required using waste heat, making it "free" without adding any load to the alternator or having to lug around an extra battery. The problem comes with that it would cost over $1,100 for this thermoelectric setup.

You can use peltier elements btw.

I looked into this also and whether you make it out of peltier elements or build it yourself out of plate copper and zinc or tin or something, the same problem occurs... you end up with a 200lb device hanging off your exhaust, and it's 12 inches or so in diameter, for any practical level of output. This is because you need to sink the heat to the surrounding atmosphere effectively. Even planning thermosiphon liquid cooling, or heatpipe cooling doesn't really reduce the bulk or mass enough. Replanning an entire car around it might work, you could have an expansion tunnel under/through the car. Redisigning an entire muffler with thin film surfaces on lightweight ceramic substrates may improve things, but you still need a lot of area to use the atmosphere as your low temp reservoir. Some direct induction method might work if you can turn the gases into an ionised plasma, but you have to use energy pumping them up to a higher energy state, so you better have a damn efficient way of dumping them back to ground to make that back. If you're a genius you might figure some self resonant RF pumping method, combination of a magnetron/klystron type thing that takes minimum extra input.

I'm messing with the idea of putting a high negative charge on the mixture inside the motor, (for other reasons) if it has any charge when it comes out, then induction from that might regain some energy.

[GasSavers_Ven]

Originally Posted by BEEF

sd26,

to say that I am a skeptic is an understatement. I don't really think that the HHO in a car and running off of the alternator will work. I think that most of the people that are seeing gains are due to them leaning out their A/F ratio which is the concept of the HHO but I think that they are running too close for comfort (for me anyway) to the detonation point.

on the other hand, if you were to get the hydrogen from another source like an external bottle then maybe there is some merit to it. a friend of mine was suggesting that you actually produce the hydrogen at your house and compress it and use it like nitrous. well instead of a spray, have a bleeder that only flows a certain amount. after looking into the process of compressing hydrogen and the danger involved. that idea bit the dust.

the next best thing is what I had stated. running a deep cycle battery (that is in no way connected to the cars electrical system) to run the HHO generator and charge the battery at night. will it work? who knows but I think it would have a better chance than the HHO generators the way they are now.

I am talking like I am actually going to do this. these are simply the ramblings of someone with too much time on my hands. I would be more likely to put a belly pan on my car than play with HHO.

take it for what its worth, just thoughts of something that MIGHT work....maybe.....who knows

I plan on doing this next for my setup.

[Jay2TheRescue]

RW - If you're looking for cheap gel cells look here...

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...d-Acid-/1.html

I have bought many items from them over the years. Their prices can't be beat unless you find someone throwing a similar item out. I have even bought gel cells from them. I bought (4) 6 volt gel cells from them and built a replacement battery pack for my Heathkit HERO jr robot. Even though they were used surplus batteries jr doesn't seem to care much.

-Jay

Originally Posted by RoadWarrior

I quite like the battery idea because in my concept of how HHO works, it looks like city mileage could take a hit, though useage at idle might not be too bad, unless you're making a LOT of HHO, so having "battery backup" for city useage looks optimal. In my useage patterns, I could use maybe half an hour of battery reserve, if I only use 20A then a small 10AH deep cycle gel cell would be good, actually you can get 10Ah NiMh D cells these days, not sure how fast you can charge or drain them though.

[GasSavers_RoadWarrior]

Thanks Jay, yes I've ordered from there a few times, got good stuff for cheap. I wish they'd keep in a full line of basic components though.
________________________________________________

VERY Interesting read here....
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...fs/fcm03r0.pdf

However, where it says to use cold plugs with a H2 motor, that means a pure H2 motor, I would think that when using with gasoline, you'd be better off using a hotter/standard plug, because you will still get carbon accumulation on a colder plug and this might contribute to firing the mixture prematurely. Note however the cautions against wasted spark systems and platinum plugs. Particularly in combo with E10 fuel, because alcohol vapour will make platinum glow red hot due to it catalysing oxidation in that as well.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

ven,

if you are going to do it with a separate battery (ride's idea, not mine. didn't mean to take the credit) I would still put some sort of kill switch which attaches to the ignition. put it on a relay that is actuated by the key switch which kills it when the car is off.

another concern I have about the HHO is what happens if it detonates in the intake. I used to be into fast vehicles (trucks to be exact) I have seen a nitrous backfire and wonder if hydrogen would do the same thing. maybe it depends on setup too. I like my truck and didn't want to blow it up so I stayed away from the spray. others didn't and their trucks run like crap now. this may not be an issue and I haven't heard of anyo of the HHO guys talking about it but it is a concern of mine anyway.

[Lug_Nut]

Originally Posted by BEEF

lug_nut
way to take things out of context man. I mean really, read the entire thing. don't take out what you want to create your own beef with me (no pun intended).
I think anyone that has been on this forum for any length of time will tell you that grid energy is more efficient and less expensive than running your vehicle to get the same amount of energy. that was more my point.

It was your post I quoted, (It was, wasn't it?) to make the point that saving gasoline by running on some offsetting percent of hydrogen is not an increase in efficiency. If you prefer that I do not quote just the important excerpts pertinent to the dialogue, but wish that I copy the entire post, and the moderators don't mind the extra bandwidth use, then I'll go back and put the entire post in.

If the purpose of adding an energy supplement or substitute is to merely reduce gasoline use, then I use no gasoline at all in my diesel cars. By default I get infinite miles per gallon of gas. A plug-in hybrid running most of the time on grid power stored in batteries doesn't really get 70 miles per gallon of gasoline when the energy in the batteries is considered. Reducing gasoline use by 10% of the BTU, by adding 15% BTU to produce hydrogen is no more efficient. There are other, more effective, less costly, means of improving vehicle distance per unit of energy rates than H2 induction systems. They use the right foot and the brain.

In regards to your statement that grid energy is more efficient: I beg to differ.
I recently, and very seriously, considered a plug-in electric scooter for my commute. After checking the ac/dc conversion efficiency of the onboard charger, the motor efficiency, and comparing what energy my power company would have to supply to get an amount of power out of the scoot, and even when using the off-peak rates of my municipal electric company, it was evident to me that my 45 mpg (bio)diesel powered 5 passenger wagon would still use less energy to get me to work and back. Barely so, but the car is both more efficient and less costly to power than the amount of electric energy I'd need to purchase, store and dispense in an electric scooter to move me to work and back.

Additionally, the mix of initial power used to produce the electricity my muni power company purchases contributes more to global climate change by fossil CO2 emissions than the production, transportation and combustion of my biodiesel. That is despite the fact that my town's electricity mix incorporates a relatively high (to national average) proportion of "clean" hydro and nuclear sources. The percent of my electricity from coal, oil, natural gas and diesel make the overall less environmentally friendly than my point of use biodiesel.
That's my situation for my electric supply and for these two vehicles considered for my commute.

Your friend's idea to produce and compress H2 at home from grid electricity has the same emissions issues that will make hydrogen generation less than "green". The power purchased from the electric utility has to be figured into the yield of the H2.
Using solar or wind or tidal power for the electricity source will keep the H2 production emissions free, but putting in a large amount of electric energy to get a much lesser amount of H2 energy is an equally lously conversion rate.
Converting AC grid power to DC electrolysis power to hydrogen is nothing but a string of efficiency losses. Using a second battery on the vehicle as proposed by another merely inserts one more conversion loss between the AC and electrolysis.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

lug_nut

in my original post that you are soooo fond of, I mentioned nothing about calculating mileage of any sort. just to point it out as well, my car is just running on gasoline and that is it.

I personally am more concerned with the cost of my commute and not the media used whether it be gasoline, diesel, pure electric, pedal power, it doesn't matter.

If I get a plug in hybrid that cuts my commute cost then that is great regardless of where the energy is coming from. some people want to save the planet, and that is well and good but I (and many others on here) are more worried about my own wallet as my first priority.

you have obviously already labeled my as a hack and a con-man so I don't see any point in continuing this conversation.

hug a tree for me.

*edit* also, sorry to hear you pay so much for electricity. I guess I am just lucky

[GasSavers_BEEF]

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut

my car gets infinite miles per gallon.

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut

grid energy is more efficient

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut

I do not quote just the important excerpts pertinent to the dialogue

that is what you said right?

just proving a point.

Originally Posted by BEEF

I am talking like I am actually going to do this. these are simply the ramblings of someone with too much time on my hands. I would be more likely to put a belly pan on my car than play with HHO.

take it for what its worth, just thoughts of something that MIGHT work....maybe.....who knows

that is the part of my quote that you MISSED

[GasSavers_Ven]

Originally Posted by BEEF

ven,

if you are going to do it with a separate battery (ride's idea, not mine. didn't mean to take the credit) I would still put some sort of kill switch which attaches to the ignition. put it on a relay that is actuated by the key switch which kills it when the car is off.

another concern I have about the HHO is what happens if it detonates in the intake. I used to be into fast vehicles (trucks to be exact) I have seen a nitrous backfire and wonder if hydrogen would do the same thing. maybe it depends on setup too. I like my truck and didn't want to blow it up so I stayed away from the spray. others didn't and their trucks run like crap now. this may not be an issue and I haven't heard of anyo of the HHO guys talking about it but it is a concern of mine anyway.

From my understanding, the fame of the hydroxy travels incredibly fast. To keep any backfire from traveling back to the hydroxy generators, most use a simple bubbler to stop the flash back. I also use a relay tied in to the ignition to kill the generators when the truck is off. This prevents two things. First, the obvious draining the battery. Second, it won't fill up your intake when your ignition isnt turned on. I've tried looking for damage caused by these things and the only thing i've found is from people not installing the relay and leaving the generators on. when they go start the car...boom. There were some vids on youtube. each time it was from someone not installing the simple relay and leaving the generators on.

Before I started doing this, I played with the gas a bit. It is a very quick flame. More of a pop than a whoosh (sorry, I cant do any better). Once you see that flame, you might see how it might be feasible to increase gasoline burn efficiency. That, and its fun to blow stuff up.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

seriously, I am not going to play with it but it is good to know that there are no (or very few) hydrogen bombs rolling around the streets. I honestly am still waiting for someone to start a gas log running HHO in anything. there are a few. there is a jeep wrangler and I have seen a '94 cavalier but he is claiming 30MPG and (being a cavalier owner) that isn't too impressive to me.

it may look like I am jumping sides here but I am a very big skeptic of this. I am just trying to be more positive about the subject. the battery charger thing might work....maybe....who knows.

good luck to any that try.