Toyota #1 displaces GM

[SVOboy]

Well, most of them were easy to figure out, but I'm thinking of one MKIII that was throwing a cel for fuel injection and had the power windows not working, and when we fixed the windows, the cel went off...but we were trying to figure out the efi problem first, so it took quite a while before giving up and doing the windows.

The V6 MKIVs also have an annoying process for timing belt...I think a few came in for regular maintenance, but the one I remember working on had a water pump fail at 20k and we had to pull the whole front end to get in there,

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Omgz, I can't believe VW started using plastic impellers. That's what happens when the bean counters get too much say. Having to pull the whole front end for it is really weird though, was it easier than pulling the engine?

[SVOboy]

I'm pretty sure it was easier, but I've never pulled one from that model so I don't really now. It wasn't difficult, just time consuming.

[MorningGaser]

Originally Posted by omgwtfbyobbq

According to consumer reports it is.



If you just look at the first year, or few, I think it's going to be very different from manufacturer to manufacturer, since problems will probably manifest relatively quickly, but as time goes by, stuff tends to converge. The manufacturer defects will be sorted out, and then it just comes down to wear and tear. So the average Toyota has .65 problems per 10 year old vehicle, and VW has 1.75 problems per 10 year old vehicle. What this says to me isn't that one manufacturer may be any better than another, it says that I shouldn't buy new, since that's a crap shoot. If I buy used, the relative quality isn't as bad as it is when new.

Seems to be funny math, friend...I think that as time goes on, cars are more and more apt to problems, not the other way around. The difference in problems between for example Honda and Ford are very large, and get larger and larger as cars age. Not sure why it's so hard for you to see, that Japanese cars are profoundly more reliable in the first few years, and 10 years out.

[MorningGaser]

Originally Posted by mrmad

Certainly the unions and pension costs have caused a large part of the American car company's decline, but I think the overall quality of their products over the past 20-30 yeard has been inferior to the Japanese cars. Their attitude towards customers is also a large reason. I remember reading somewhere years ago that the big three in Japan (Toyota, Honda, Nissan) have an overall attutide that they want you to be so satified with your car that you will be a loyal, lifetime customer. And they will do what they can to make this happen. The American car companies don't seem to get it that it pisses customers off to be paying large repair bills before the vehicle is paid off.

For example, my wife has a 1990 4Runner. It is a well known fact Toyota had quality problems with the headgaskets on the V6 engines. In 1998, Toyota contacted us and said they wanted to check it out. They not only replaced the headgaskets on an 8 year old vehicle that we bought used, they gave us a rent a car while the work was being done. Because they had to remachine the block, they ended up rebuilding the entire engine. All for free. Had we owned an Explorer (which probably would not lasted 8 years in the 1st place), the local Ford dealer may have offered a "good" deal on a new Explorer.

Another good example of this is Nissan's 1st attempt at a minivan in the late 80s (can't remember what it was called). They had enough quality issues with the vehicle that by the time the 1st Quests were being sold, Nissan believed the old minivans were hurting their reputation. They had a nationwide program to buy everyone of them back from their current owners at high bluebook value just to get them off the road. Chrysler would have to buy back nearly every car they've ever made to imporve their reputation in quality.

When it comes to car dealership employees, salesmen, service writers, mechanics, etc, regardless of brand, they're mostly crooks, liars, and cheats. For every example of "great service" you come up with, with regard to Japanese brands, I can come up with a great service story when dealing with an American brand, and further, I can come up with horror stories when dealing with Honda and Toyota.

The make is often irrelevent...they all often suck and they all often show good service, regardless of the brand.

Jut today I had to fight for justice when I took my 2007 Yaris to the Toyota dealer to get an in warranty issue fixed...I got lied to, they made me wait, etc...I was pissed but in the end I got satisfaction, but why they put me through the grinder is a mystery to me.

I believe the Japanes make the best cars in the world, etc, but as far as their dealers go, and level of service, they're often no better then the American brands....I have several Honda dealer horror stories too.

[SVOboy]

Well, in all reality, Americans aren't Japanese.

[mrmad]

When it comes to car dealership employees, salesmen, service writers, mechanics, etc, regardless of brand, they're mostly crooks, liars, and cheats. For every example of "great service" you come up with, with regard to Japanese brands, I can come up with a great service story when dealing with an American brand, and further, I can come up with horror stories when dealing with Honda and Toyota.

The make is often irrelevent...they all often suck and they all often show good service, regardless of the brand.

Jut today I had to fight for justice when I took my 2007 Yaris to the Toyota dealer to get an in warranty issue fixed...I got lied to, they made me wait, etc...I was pissed but in the end I got satisfaction, but why they put me through the grinder is a mystery to me.

I believe the Japanes make the best cars in the world, etc, but as far as their dealers go, and level of service, they're often no better then the American brands....I have several Honda dealer horror stories too.

Yes the American dealers of Japanese cars can be a PITA, but the difference between the American car and the Japanese car is the 800 number for customer support. If you are not satisfied, a call to Toyota/Nissan/Honda's 800 number can make a big difference. My father ran the dealer operations for an American farm machinery company and was used to their dealers basically telling the parent company to screw off, but when he had issues with a Nissan dealer was very impressed with how quickly Nissan straightened the issue out. I've had similar experiences in using the 800 numbers. Your results may vary obviously, but it is certainly worth a shot.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Originally Posted by MorningGaser

Seems to be funny math, friend...I think that as time goes on, cars are more and more apt to problems, not the other way around. The difference in problems between for example Honda and Ford are very large, and get larger and larger as cars age. Not sure why it's so hard for you to see, that Japanese cars are profoundly more reliable in the first few years, and 10 years out.

If we compare the 2005 consumer reports reliability ratings to the 1996(?) ratings, the reliability ratings scale pretty well. But since we don't have the 1996 ratings, we can't say if there were any change. That being said, if a 2005 Toyota has 10 problems per 100 cars, and the same year VW has 23 problems per 100 cars, that tracks pretty well with the same ratio of the ten year old models give or take ~5-10%. There are more and more problems for any used car, but the ratio of problems seems to be the same based on the 2005 data. Like I said before, averaging about a problem less per year, per car, is hardly profound. There's a greater variance from model to model, than manufacturer to manufacturer from what I can see, based on having two high mileage Toyota's a decade apart and a really high mileage VW.

[BeeUU]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

*shrug* for the VW's I've worked on it takes about a year to figure out what the problem is and then another to get to the part that's broken (MKIII and MKIV jetta's spent a lot of time in the shop I worked at last year).

I have owned and driven to near death a MKI Rabbit, MKII Golf Diesel and a MKIII Jetta GLS. And all have been pretty good, the first two were from Westmorland (sp?) and the last from Mexico.

My 1994 Jetta has had a few problems (One window regulator, the second is on the way, plus a CEL light and low oil pressure) but I will not get rid of it yet. It has 205k miles, still gets great mileage and look nice. But, I also work on my own cars so I dont "deal" with the dealership and once an issue if fixed the car is fine again for a while. That always feels nice.

I sure wish I kept the Golf diesel now, that was a great car, albeit slow.

[VetteOwner]

any new car(i mean new model of car) by any manufaturer is going to have a whole host of problems. reason is because sicn eits new its been built on all new machines(usually at least new die's) and all the specs and such arent quite kinked out yet. look at anythign thats brand new technology, from cars to video game systems. for an example look at the ford focus in consumer reports, the first year it was out it was rated one of the worst, a few years later and its a best buy.