Synthetic Oil vs. Natural Oil

[diamondlarry]

jamescartagena's post above removes a lot of credibility from this entire web site. He wants you to buy Amsoil and become an Amsoil dealer not because it's good for you or your car or your wallet but because it benefits his wallet. He's a salesman, and he's here because he doesn't want to pay for advertisements. It's unfortunate that the administration of gassavers.org allows someone to advertise for free on the site. Amsoil is a multi-level marketing scheme. You know the difference between a dead possum on the highway and a dead Amsoil salesman on the highway? There are swerve marks before the possum.

I don't think he said he was a salesman. Actually, what he said was,

Here is an email that I received from an Amsoil dealer and member of Society of Automotive Engineers. I'm partial to Amsoil as I've tested it and use it in both my vehicles. I've noticed a solid 1 mpg gain in my F150 pickup.

He was asked by the other person to contact him if he ever wanted to become a dealer.

I am here to help anytime and if you decide to become a dealer please let me know.

I also use Amsoil in my car but am NOT a dealer for the very reason you stated about James' credibilty. If I were to become a dealer, my credibility would be lost to someones perception that I would be out to drain everyones wallet.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by CosmicMC

jamescartagena's post above removes a lot of credibility from this entire web site. He wants you to buy Amsoil and become an Amsoil dealer not because it's good for you or your car or your wallet but because it benefits his wallet. He's a salesman, and he's here because he doesn't want to pay for advertisements. It's unfortunate that the administration of gassavers.org allows someone to advertise for free on the site. Amsoil is a multi-level marketing scheme. You know the difference between a dead possum on the highway and a dead Amsoil salesman on the highway? There are swerve marks before the possum.

Admin of Gassavers here...

Just so know you, i understand what you are saying, mostly. I've been leary of sythetic oil myself and have never actually seen evidence one way or another which will confirm the claims that synthetic oil gives better gas mileage. The manufacturers themselves rarely say this. While they may be behind the scenes whispering into people's ears that sythetic oil is the best oil for your car, they never do it publically.

This carries a lot of weight with me. In Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World he pointed out that extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof (of course I'm paraphrasing, but you get my drift). Most of the synthetic oil companies avoid this by never making the claims in the first place.

Now adays, however, anyone can claim that their device improves fuel economy without it really affecting them directly. The makers of the Tornado have managed to sell their snake oil in name brand retail auto parts stores. The "Khaos Turbo Charger" managed to fool even the government of some countries. Remember though, extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof.

Which is the main reason this site was started. Not only is it a geeky hobby of mine, but it is also a place for people to get together and discuss the proofs behind fuel efficiency. I've read the message boards elsewhere and i've seen the websites selling the products.

I'm hoping that this website does not turn out to be like the other ones.

This site has something unique. People can actually call "bull****" when someone makes a claim. A free exchange of ideas allows for people to disagree and require proof. Does pissing in your gastank really help gas mileage? Prove it. Show me numbers.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before but I have a degree in Psychology. I know all about how gullible the human animal is and I know all about how an experiment is supposed to be run. I excel at numbers and math and also know how to crunch the numbers if I need to. I also know what it's like to be in a society where free ideas and information are not only discouraged, but punished. I won't talk more about that in public, if you want to know what I'm talking about, feel free to send me a private message. The last thing that we want to do here is discourage people from posting what they know, or what they think is true. It allows everyone to be educated, edified, and in the end, as DiamondLarry as said in the past, we all win.

So as Administrator I will not delete a post simply because I don't know it to be true. I will also not be the one who asks for proof constantly. I think a group of people who really care about what we're trying to do here and who are sick of junk science, scams, and rips offs will collectively call "bull****" on each other. If you call bull**** on me and I really believe what I'm saying I will be delighted to prove it to you. I'll only get offended if I don't believe it myself.

So, you've called bull**** on sythetic oil. Now it's time for people to prove you wrong, if they can. I'm interested in the results as well.

[rh77]

I'm right there with you on this one, Matt. This board tries to maintain the highest integrity of the scientific process. Clean Data and Analysis. No butt-dynos here. Prove it legitimately. If a salesman comes on here, we can choose to ignore or test the product. I think we try to keep it friendly too...

RH77

[Compaq888]

you got to have proof is right. Like my mpg is true because I filled up and didn't make a number. I will tell you right now. I have used Mobil 1 before and I even drove in my sweet spot and it would never go over 29mpg for freeway ONLY. I now get 30mpg in the mix, that means city and freeway combined. I use royal rurple. I change it every 3k and use a nissan filter because it's better than a FRAM or Mobil filter. I have always used the same gas. Chevron or Shell. So you try to explain how I get 30mpg in the mix when before I got less than 29mpg on the freeway only. Everybody knows I replaced a bunch of parts to get this mpg, and when I got less than 29mpg I had a $485 maintenance where ALL the fluids were changed and all the small stuff was replaced. And I still got 29mpg. The only difference now is I use royal purple and my tires are pumped up 5psi from oem numbers on the door. Which is 32psi.

[CosmicMC]

Well Matt, I'm very happy to hear this. I expected to be banned. In case there is any confusion, you have it right, I call bull**** on synthetic oils and especially Amsoil. I appreciate your forward-thinking attitude.

Let me state for the record that I am not any kind of expert at anything but my job, and that has nothing to do with any kind of car technology or fluids or anything automotive-related whatsoever. I just read a lot and run various experiments on my own for my own amusement, plus I get a warm and tingly feeling from learning the truth, kind of like when you get a new 12-pack of underwear from a humongous retail store chain: Whether you admit it or not, you know you secretly pick those new skivvies out of the drawer in the morning before those crusty old ones because the new ones just feel better, and also because the elastic is still attached to the butt part. That's why I like to find the truth: Because those new Wal-Mart house brand 12 for $1.99 undies make perfect sense when you're in the store. Later on down the road, it's very possible you'll realize that you spend 2/3 of your day adjusting things by walking funny in public and that those undies may have been so affordable because they are forged from recycled fiberglass insulation. But you can still look forward to getting a different brand megapack of new undies and have another new-underwear nirvana experience next week. Anyway, the point is that even being proven wrong is a learning experience, and that's the new Sack O' Skivvies I so desperately crave.

When I think about "gassavers.org," I'm not sure whether that means the site is geared toward conservation of oil or conservation of cash. I am personally strongly biased toward conservation of cash, mostly because I'm not at all interested in helping some anonymous ******* 87-year-old oil company executive buy a bigger yacht and a diamond-encrusted collar for his 26-year-old wife Muffy's pet poodle. Most of the time, saving cash also means saving oil resources. Not always, though, so it's important to make the distinction.

Compaq888, I can't make any sense out of your post. One one side it sounds like you attribute your gas mileage gain to expensive purple oil. On the other side it sounds like you've done lots of other things to try and gain a few MPG, so you really can't point to the oil as the source of the gain. Either way, you're changing synthetic oil at a 3000 mile interval which is a huge waste of time and money. Any gas savings you have from doing that is more than wiped out by your oil change practices. What exactly are you trying to accomplish with your tweaking and tuning? Money savings? If that's the case, I think you could do much better by changing to conventional motor oil, which is recommended by Nissan by the way, and doing a used oil analysis to help you determine what interval would be both safe and also cost less money. Try Blackstone Labs or Dyson Oil Analysis or any one of the many oil analysis laboratories out there. It's typically $20. You could save that much on a single oil change by following their advice instead of making up an oil change schedule based on marketing and speculation. Before you do anything, though, decide exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish. Saving money? Saving oil resources? Just trying to get the highest MPG number possible at any cost so you can sound cool on a web site? So you get 1 MPG better. That's terrific, but what does that 1 MPG cost you? The oil is about 3 times as expensive. Do you make that up in the cost of gas? Is it really worth it??? To me, that's the question to be answered on gassavers.org. I'll offer whatever proof and hard data I can to help in those efforts.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by CosmicMC

When I think about "gassavers.org," I'm not sure whether that means the site is geared toward conservation of oil or conservation of cash. I am personally strongly biased toward conservation of cash, mostly because I'm not at all interested in helping some anonymous ******* 87-year-old oil company executive buy a bigger yacht and a diamond-encrusted collar for his 26-year-old wife Muffy's pet poodle. Most of the time, saving cash also means saving oil resources. Not always, though, so it's important to make the distinction.

Excellent point. I've touched on this a few times, but not very securely. Originally my plan was to save money. The goal was to build a car that could get 50mpg for a fraction of the cost of buying a hybrid. That is still sort of my goal. The fact is, however, that from a purely monitary standpoint I'll never make the money back I've put into this car. I've purchased a new transmission, a new engine, I've painted it, bought new trim to make it look pretty, new seats, hardware for cruise control, new rims and tires (twice) and other little things that I can't even begin to add up. I've probably spent the value of the car in parts and repairs. Now it's a hobby more than anything else. My hobby is to get high gas mileage. That isn't much different than people dropping $400 on a carbon fiber hood so they can save 5lbs on their total weight. Actually, that is more wasteful than what I'm doing.

I will probably never break even. I work at home and drive a total of something like 5000-6000 miles a year in my car. That figure is with the road trips to Las Vegas twice a year. It's ridiculous how little I drive. It's about more than money though now. Part of my motivation is now about doing my part to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. If 25% of our population worked at home and had very fuel efficient cars then I guess we wouldn't have much of an oil crisis to worry about.

As for the website's purpose, it's up to the user. I really don't care if people are here to save money, help the enviroment, or just to reduce foreign dependance on oil. To me it's all the same in the end. If people with different agendas can get together for a common goal, then we all win.

Originally Posted by CosmicMC

Before you do anything, though, decide exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish. Saving money? Saving oil resources? Just trying to get the highest MPG number possible at any cost so you can sound cool on a web site? So you get 1 MPG better. That's terrific, but what does that 1 MPG cost you? The oil is about 3 times as expensive. Do you make that up in the cost of gas? Is it really worth it??? To me, that's the question to be answered on gassavers.org. I'll offer whatever proof and hard data I can to help in those efforts.

this is another one of my problems with sythetic oil. I looked online and saw it was $5/quart. I guess if you do your oil changes yourself you pretty much break even when compared to having the guy at Jiffy Lube do it for you. $20 vs. $20. Right now though $20 is 10 gallons of gasoline. I get 33 mpg (right now, at least). Is using the purple oil going to save me 330 miles worth of gas per oil change? if I change my oil every 3000 miles and get a 1mpg improvement, yes it will. but my engine also burns oil, so I'll end up putting more oil into the engine during the experiment. I also don't see the marginal benefit of doing something that makes me break even.

I'm blabbing now, but I hope you get my drift. I need to go eat lunch and put my new tires on my n600.

[n0rt0npr0]

I cannot prove Synthetics cause leaks. In 6 out of my last 6 vehicles I've visually encountered increased oil seepage AFTER I went from dino juice to synthetic. Didn't matter whether it was Royal Purple or Mobil One, after 500 miles of use, new spots of oil have occurred on my driveway. Mileage? I've made the switch as early as *edit* 20K to as late as 230K.
One advantage to synthetics I've found is a little better overall fuel mileage(went from 22mpg to 24mpg in one vehicle but generally 7% increase in economy)
I've done tests on dino oil, and I can't get dino oil to last longer than 8,000 miles in any 1988-1994 GM 60 degree V6 engine. My synthetics are lasting 25,000 miles by comparison. Using the same $6 filters too. Over three times the longevity there.
$13.50 for dino oil change
$32.00 for synthetic oil change

After 25,000 miles, I save $8 on the oil changes + the time involved to do them in my driveway + $431.22 worth of gas.
Well one more thing, I am not figuring the cost of "topping off" but as you can see with those gas savings, I wouldn't really need to.

So with 14 years of synthetic oil usage, I can conclude that synthetic oil use does lead to increased oil consumption but still significantly less overall than if you were to keep doing Dino oil changes every 8,000 miles.

We're here to contribute ways to make us less dependant on crude oil reserves, and this is just a small drop in the bucket but every drop counts.
~Will

[SVOboy]

I might as well chime in and say that I dunno much about this difference, but my family has always used full synthetics and none of the cars have leaked oil.

[n0rt0npr0]

*

[n0rt0npr0]

You should chime up and list ALL the models that have not leaked the oil. It will help guide me to my next vehicle choice in the future.