OT Imagine

[R.I.D.E.]

Thanks Snax.

When I got married 4-4-89 we had a 10.586% mortgage on a condo. The payoff on $56,000 was $180,000. We paid it off in 2 years 6 months. Neither of us was making more than 30k a year. We sold a car to pay off the last $5000 and bought a newer car. Traded a car payment for a house payment.

We were paying $1500 a month in interest when we got married. After the mortgage was paid off the interest payments were $75 per month.

After that I started rebuilding totals (cars) and got rid of the car payment in months.

The result was no interest payments to anyone. That happened in 1992. We moved to another house and sold the condo, took on another $40k in debt. Paid that off in 18 months, mostly with the interest we were saving. The 40k note was at 7%, instead of 10.586% of the previous note.

My father bought the house so we could assume a VA loan, that was valued at 10k at the time (the loan itself). After owning the second house for 6 years we sold it for 10k more than we paid for it. The real estate market here was flat for almost 15 years, we made no profit for the sale of the second house, the value went up 10K, but we made improvements that ate up half that increase.

The next step was to build a house, never did that kind of work in my life.
My youngest brother is a class B contractor. Without his help it would never have happened. It took 16 months and I didn't make a dime of income. I sold my auto repair shop and used the payments to survive.

We moved in this house in January 2001. My wifes parents had passed away the year before and left her some money. I told her to get out of the stock market, and put the funds in CDs which were paying about 7% then. She didn't listen to me. She finally sold the stocks the week after 9-11. It cost us 30K.

The housing market here went ballistic at this time. The new home was appreciating at a rate of $500 per week. 3.5 years later we sold it for $325,000 (cost without labor was $160k) to a couple and moved into the home we now live in today, which I also built in 16 months. That same house today, after the new owner spent $200,000 to build extensive additions, is assesed at $625,000.

The last house cost me $180k to build, it's current assesment is $319k. It would sell for $400 in the old market but today we would be lucky to get $325k for the same house.

We can only get 3.5% on our CDs now last year it was 5.12%, in 1990 it was 7%.

How many of you have made a loan application where the person processing your load has encouraged you to "embellish" the facts to either get you approved or lower your interest rate. It seems like such an innocent act, but the results are what we are facing today.

This did not start at the bottom, but it wasn't made a clear "policy" from the top. Instead it was done very quietly with no record of the acts involved. The people who signed on for these mortgages were sold that paper because they did not want to miss out on the real estate boom. Performance standards were the code of conduct, with no consideration of the long term human suffering involved.

This is the background for my original post. Without personal responsibility and individual integrity this Democracy will fail.

Moral to this long winded post, and the reason why I originally stated "give the 700 Billion to the taxpayers. One out of 3 people in this country actually file tax returns. They are the source of revenues for govt operations and they will be the ones who foot the bill. I agree with Snax completely, no bailout. On the other hand its important to understand that if we allow the financial markets to collapse the whole hosue of cards could fall. The system is based on trust and integrity. Greed is the poision pill that will destroy the system.

The total personal national wealth is estimated at 66 trillion dollars in the US. This figure represents the frugal lifestyles of people since the US became a country. Govt has spent 1/6th of the total national wealth as we speak. It affects the availablity of credit to everyone when you have to compete with the government for a loan. A government that does not have to balance its books each month the way all responsible individuals must do in order to survive.

regards
gary

[Snax]

Well said Gary.

[Dalez0r]

Give the taxpayers $700B of their own money?

The Gov is obviously going to borrow to get that $700B. Giving it to anybody is effectively FORCING the taxpayers to take out a $700B loan. *I* dont want a share in a $700B loan. I didn't really want a share in the 'economic stimulus' loan either.

I would also point out that the wording of the 'bailout bill' is such that $700B isn't how much they're going to give away, it's how much AT ONE TIME they can give away.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Dalez0r

The Gov is obviously going to borrow to get that $700B.

I hope that it doesn't end up being a bad sub-prime loan.

[GasSavers_SD26]

Originally Posted by Dalez0r

Give the taxpayers $700B of their own money?

The Gov is obviously going to borrow to get that $700B. Giving it to anybody is effectively FORCING the taxpayers to take out a $700B loan. *I* dont want a share in a $700B loan. I didn't really want a share in the 'economic stimulus' loan either.

I would also point out that the wording of the 'bailout bill' is such that $700B isn't how much they're going to give away, it's how much AT ONE TIME they can give away.

Senate porked it up, and I heard this AM recently that it's now $852 billion.

If there was ever a time to make a call to a representative...

[Dalez0r]

It just passed the house. Sad day for America.

[R.I.D.E.]

Originally Posted by Dalez0r

Give the taxpayers $700B of their own money?

The Gov is obviously going to borrow to get that $700B. Giving it to anybody is effectively FORCING the taxpayers to take out a $700B loan. *I* dont want a share in a $700B loan. I didn't really want a share in the 'economic stimulus' loan either.

I would also point out that the wording of the 'bailout bill' is such that $700B isn't how much they're going to give away, it's how much AT ONE TIME they can give away.

I couldn't agree more.

The govt is now 5 years behind in collections (at least) to expenditures.

I think the maximum income tax rate at one time was something like 94%.

Harry Truman retired from the white house on a $138 per month pension from his service in WW1.

He sold his memoirs for $600,000 after taxes and expenses he netted $40,000.

You may see that again before this govt is finished.

regards
gary

[Dalez0r]

They're also taxing us indirectly. Every time you spend money you dont have (borrow it) you add more money to the economy, causing inflation. Inflation causes all of our money to be worth less... the amount less being about equal to the added money. Lately, inflation (REAL inflation, not what they SAY our inflation is) has been through the ROOF. Wonder why gas is 3.50-4$/gallon? Look not at 'higher oil prices' but at lower valued DOLLARS.

Commune with hour based currency anyone? =\

[Project84]

I just got a chain email about this very topic... I'll copy/paste. Interesting.

Oh, just realized this only concerns the $85B bailout of AIG... translate these effects to correspond w/ the $700B

__________________________________________________ ____________
__________________________________________________ ____________
Please read, forward to all your friends, and forward to your representatives. If they really want to help the American people, here?s their answer. I'm against the $85 BILLION bailout of AIG. Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a "We Deserve It" dividend. To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bona fide U.S. Citizens, aged 18+.

Our population is about 301 million counting every man, woman and child. So, 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up. Now, divide 200 million, 18+ adults into $85 billon - that equals $425,000.00 each! Yes, my plan is to give that $425,000 to every adult as a "We Deserve It" dividend.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So, let' s assume a tax rate of 30%. Every recipient would pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends $25.5 billion right back to Uncle Sam! It also means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. A husband and wife would have $595,000.00!

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595, 000.00?
? Pay off your mortgage ? housing crisis solved
? Repay college loans ? what a great boost to new grads
? Put away money for college ? it'll really be there
? Save in a bank ? create money to loan to entrepreneurs
? Buy a new car ? create jobs
? Invest in the market ? capital drives growth
? Pay for your parent's medical insurance ? health care improves
? Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean ? or else

Remember this is for every adult U.S. Citizen, 18 and older (including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehmann Brothers and every other company that is cutting back) and of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it! Instead of trickling out a puny $1,000 economic incentive.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U.S. Citizen!!

As for AIG ? liquidate it.
? Sell off its parts.
? Let American General go back to being American General.
? Sell off the real estate.
? Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

We deserve the money and AIG doesn't. Sure it's a crazy idea, but can you imagine the coast-to-coast block party?!

How do you spell Economic Boom? W-e D-e-S-e-R-v-e I-t d-I-v-I-d-e-n-d!

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion "We Deserve It" dividend more than the geniuses at AIG or in Washington, D.C.

And remember, this plan only really costs $59.5 billion because $25.5 billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Project84

200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up.

I'm not sure why only adults would get money. What about the taxpaying non-adults? I had paid thousands in taxes before I ever turned 18, maybe tens of thousands. I probably worked harder then than I do now.

Now, divide 200 million, 18+ adults into $85 billon - that equals $425,000.00 each!

Didn't someone call out that math earlier in this thread, or was that in another thread about this topic? Anyway, that's probably the kind of math that got us into this mess!

85,000,000,000 / 200,000,000 = 850/2 = $425, not $425,000...unless you're using long scale billions.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So, let' s assume a tax rate of 30%. Every recipient would pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends $25.5 billion right back to Uncle Sam! It also means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. A husband and wife would have $595,000.00!

Why not just give them $297,500 (really, $297) tax-free? Why go to all the effort of passing it back and forth? Just to provide more work for accountants and the already error-prone IRS?

Wait, someone already did give the taxpayers $297...actually, many (most?) got twice that much.

Anyway, this kind of smoke-and-mirrors math should really raise some skepticism when you read it -- if it's only enough to cover the bad loan problem, how can it possibly be MORE when you pass it out to individuals? After all, the individuals with the bad loans will all be able to pay up those loans (covering everything the bailout is about), and they only represent a small fraction of the recipients.