New Car Comparisons

[northboundtrain]

Sitting home with a sick kid today, and I'm entertaining notions/fantasies of replacing the old dirty diesel with new car. Using official EPA estimates and MSRP, I've compared sticker price to fuel savings for the prius, corolla, and yaris. Figuring gas at $3.00/gal in today's dollars, I found that the pruis and yaris would each have to be driven 312,800 miles for the fuel savings of the prius to equal the difference in sticker price. This assumes equal maintanence costs, which is unlikely, especially given the prius would probably need two battery replacements over this many miles. For the corolla-prius comparison, the break-even point is 207,340 miles, again assuming equal maintanence costs.

A VW tdi (when they start U.S. Production again) would have an even higher break-even number of miles compared to an entry-level economy car given it's likely higher sticker price (not to mention maintanence costs).

Not that saving money is the only consideration, but likewise, mpg isn't the only consideration either when considering overall environmental impact (the batteries of a prius are extremely environmentally destructive to manufacture).

Anyway, this is just food for thought when trying to make sensible purchase decisions. . .

[SVOboy]

I would go with the prius. I think it can be pushed a little bit harder on the FE and the emissions and such are lower. I would also wager it would have a much higher used price, so if you figure your calculations 8 years away with 120k on them, I think you'd make a few thousand back on the prius.

[MorningGaser]

ConsumerReports does not often like VW, so I would stay clear of them, especially those made in Mexico.

Being a Yaris owner, I can say that it is a great car, and I get better then Prius in the highway (46mpg), but not city (36.3). I think that if you factor in the cost of ownership, including depreciation, fuel, and maintenence, you would save money if you went the Yaris route, over the Prius. Of course the Prius is bigger and more comfortable, but these issues aside, the Yaris is better for saving $$ on gas, and they sell very nicely equipt new for $13,000 too.

[rh77]

It depends on the size you need and the cost. The Corolla is a good choice -- fairly low running costs and good FE. The Prius is also an excellent choice. I agree with VW vs. Consumer Reports. The stats speak for themselves.

I almost always recommend Honda, but lately, they've seemed high-priced and rather thirsty. I saw a truckload of fresh '08 Accords come out of the Marysville, Ohio factory last Friday -- they looked like a BMW 3-series!

I haven't had the chance to post the data, but I've rented several automatic Corollas this past year, and averaged around 32 mpg at 65 mph for a cumulative distance of 2500 miles+. A manual and better technique could get you up in the 40's and 50's. The Prius is capable of much more, but with more up-front cost and learning new technique. I'd stay away from the Matrix/Vibe due to FE issues.

I also really like the Kia/Hyundai offerings -- specifically the Spectra/Elantra (granted they generally have an iron block, but mileage is on-par to Toyota, with more safety features and a better warranty).

If a small hatch is on the radar, look at the Yaris. Drive 'em and see what you like

If emissions are a top concern, I've often looked at a Civic GX Natural Gas sedan. If you live in an "approved area" with home natural gas, you can fill-up overnight and have about a 250-mile range. High upfront costs with the "Phill" unit and vehicle are there, but longevity is a big plus. Downside: auto only.

RH77

[MorningGaser]

Originally Posted by rh77

I also really like the Kia/Hyundai offerings -- specifically the Spectra/Elantra (granted they generally have an iron block, but mileage is on-par to Toyota, with more safety features and a better warranty).

The Korean jobs are in fact NOT on par with Toyota in regard to milage. They are 10% or more behind in fact.

And although the Korean jobs cost less, the Yaris has a lower cost of ownership then the corresponding Korean models.

Also, there is a reason why the Korean models need the 10 year warranty...think about it, and if you do, you'll see why the Toyota 3yr/36k warrantied cars are better.

[northboundtrain]

Some questions:

Suppose I got a corolla. What are some mods would you all recommend that would return gains in FE and keep the car under warranty. The idea of a nice clean burning reasonably priced car with adequate power (read: get up mountain passes w/o hazard lights flashing) that could realistically get mid 40s mpg or higher is starting to sound rather appealing. Even though I can burn biodiesel and get mid 40s mpg in my Jetta, I'm starting to feel a little guilty when I see the black film of particulate covering the back of my car (bad emissions and bad aerodynamics). Not to mention, 52 hp just plain sucks sometimes.

Also, how is the corolla geared for highway cruising as opposed to the yaris, or fit or civic for that matter?

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Originally Posted by northboundtrain

Even though I can burn biodiesel and get mid 40s mpg in my Jetta, I'm starting to feel a little guilty when I see the black film of particulate covering the back of my car (bad emissions and bad aerodynamics). Not to mention, 52 hp just plain sucks sometimes.

Back your *smoke screw down until it goes away and put on a underbody tray/toss a properly designed spoiler on the end of your trunk. If you want more power w/ modern emissions, drop a TDI in. It'll definitely be less money and more usable power provided you can wrench on it yourself. That being said, a Corolla or Yaris would do pretty well and are already optimized for aero to an extent. The only thing I can think of would be a better spoiler, but newer cars have the air flow around the sides instead of dealing with a strict 15 degree angle from the top of the car to the trunk, so I wonder if that'll even work.

*Black smoke equals money wasted out your tail pipe, not to mention you'll actually make less power compared to a mixture that isn't overly rich.

[northboundtrain]

Originally Posted by omgwtfbyobbq

Back your *smoke screw down until it goes away and put on a underbody tray/toss a properly designed spoiler on the end of your trunk. If you want more power w/ modern emissions, drop a TDI in.

The smoke screw adjustment is a balance between adequate power and foul exhaust. I've backed it way down for emissions testing and walked away with riduculously low particulate percentages, but the car could hardly get out of the parking lot with that "tune." I have thought of a spoiler, underpan, and many other mods, but that will only happen if I actually decide the car is worth the significant investment of time. As for "dropping" in a TDI, I'd rather drop the car off the nearest cliff and sell it for scrap metal than waste that kind of time, energy, and money in a such a POS

[omgwtfbyobbq]

With that little power you likely backed it down too much for the test. There's a point where you'll get a little bit of smoke if you bog it too much, but you'll have all the power you should have stock. Any more, and it just gets dumped out the back in the form of smoke since you have no way of increasing air flow proportionally. These engines were designed to rev, so you can bump up the fuel screw for more torque down low, but it'll change all kinds of things, and IME, generally hurt top end power. As for the TDI swap, in terms of time and energy, it's not a hard swap AFAIK, but if you don't wanna you don't wanna. I bet aeromods on bricks like these would make themselves up in less time spent at the gas station provided you keep the car for more than a year, but from what it sounds like, you don't exactly plan on doing that. :P

[northboundtrain]

I have thought of completely overhauling the jetta with radical aero mods, a taller geared tranny from a gasser, rebuilt engine, weight reduction, etc. I could probably get 60+ mpg. But the amount of work involved is staggering, and still it would have 30 year old engine technology that will never have better emissions than you could get out of a tractor, not matter what you do to the fuel screw, and you're still way underpowered.

There was a time when I was really psyched to dive into such a project, but now I question the point of it. Why bother? To prove to myself it could be done? Because it would be more fun than any other way I can think to spend my time? In the end, I still have a dirty diesel in a cheap car and the months of work that went into it are valuable only to me.

I'm definitely the type to prefer the DYI hard way over the just-spend-the-money-and-be-done-with-it easy way, and if I could be convinced of the value of such a project, I'd launch into it tomorrow, but right now it doesn't seem worth it. I've already spent a lot of time working on this car and my previous rabbit when I could have been playing with my kids or getting worthwhile house projects completed. So yeah, it might be time to rinse my hands of this thing. . .

But this thread is starting to wander from the original intent.