Mazda's new fuel efficient engine..

[Jcp385]

Originally Posted by trollbait

Mazda delivered the SkyActiv diesel; just not to the US. They wanted to meet emissions without the use of DEF. The engine meets at lest Euro5 and Japan regs without the fluid. Mazda kept trying and trying, but could never meet US regs while maintaining performance and efficiency.

Then VW got caught cheating with their diesels here.

Mazda might retry the diesel for the US with SCR and DEF now.

This is also the story of why the US didn't get a diesel Accord.

Yeah I didn't make it terribly clear but that's exactly what I was referring to, though I didn't know much about the Accord.

If I may be allowed to stray further from the subject, I think that speaks to why it might be a good idea to have some measure of standardization for automotive standards. If not through governments then perhaps through something such as ISO?

[trollbait]

Originally Posted by Jcp385

Yeah I didn't make it terribly clear but that's exactly what I was referring to, though I didn't know much about the Accord.

If I may be allowed to stray further from the subject, I think that speaks to why it might be a good idea to have some measure of standardization for automotive standards. If not through governments then perhaps through something such as ISO?

I don't hold Mazda for not delivering in this case. They honestly thought they were going to be able to pass EPA emissions as the engine was based upon what other cars, the Jetta, were selling here. This is an example of how VW's cheating did more harm than just more NOx emissions.

I do think Mazda might be trying the diesel for the US again, at least in the SUVs. Being late might be a good thing, because the diesels in some markets were experiencing high levels of fuel contamination in the motor oil early on. Then again, if this HCCI engine lives up to the hype, a diesel might not be needed.

After the first Accord IMA hybrid was cancelled, Honda had announced plans for a diesel model. They couldn't meet emissions with performance and fuel economy while just using a NOx trap. It was still early on with the stricter diesel emission limits, and the public was still resistant to the idea of having to add DEF.

[gregsfc]

Huyndai was at one time committed to engineering and marketing HCCI power trains, but they recently announced they would abandon this technology, not because they couldn't do it, but because the exhaust treatment required to make them compliant was nearly as costly as making a diesel compliant.

Recently (just in October), Mazda announced how they've achieved success at an auto show. They claim it is fairly simple and straight forward, though I'm not enough of a gear head to understand it. They say they use a spark to create and control and ensure the compression event, and that their HCCI will use compression at or about 90% of the time.

I don't think NOx is an issue for HCCI, as that's a problem more related to oxygen rich diesel fuels after combustion.

There is also another new, exciting technology for ICEs. A new generation of cylinder deactivation continually pushed by General Motors who want to stay with large displacement engines for trucks and SUVs. Supposedly Dynamic Skip Fire will replace Active Fuel Management and will be a much more refined, reliable, and more economical system of cylinder deactivation. Delphi has come up with it and they are pushing for their 48V mild hybrid system to use in conjunction with it for up to (they say) 20% fuel savings.

The next year or two will be interesting as different technologies move toward better mpg and fewer emissions of all engine types. Wish there were a solution for making NOx reduction cheaper for diesels. Competition is a good thing!

[SteveMak]

The article I read about Mazda's HCCI made it out to be the next miracle thing: 30% more fuel economy, more power, considerably lower emissions. We'll see what the story is when it's offered as a volume production unit. I am hopeful it delivers.

[Draigflag]

Got a funny feeling they'll scrap it last minute, and jumps on the electric band wagon along with everyone else. Its adapt or die in this current climate, if all manufacturers don't start EV development soon, they risk huge sales losses in the next decade or so.

[trollbait]

Mazda is in a partnership with Toyota for hybrid and electric tech.

[SteveMak]

Originally Posted by Draigflag

Got a funny feeling they'll scrap it last minute...

Stranger things have happened. I hope you're wrong. I was raised on ICE, and I like it (though I dislike the pollution, and not just at the tailpipe). In 2015, I discovered diesel (my current car), and I love it!

I'd love it if a new ICE technology like HCCI stepped in and delivered, in a big way, even if it only ended up being a stop-gap solution. Imagine if HCCI produced less pollution over a 500 mile road trip than a hybrid, consumed less fuel, and had all the conveniences and (subjective) sensory pleasures that ICE-ers like... at a lower purchase price and operating cost than a hybrid. I'd call that a win, even if it was just a stop-gap solution to eventual EV domination.

Ultimately, this is only speculation until the HCCI concept shows up as a real, mass-produced product (if it does at all), and delivers considerable benefits over the alternatives.

[R.I.D.E.]

I felt that way about my 94 Civic VX and was disappointed to see the NOX emissions kill the 25 to 1 AF ratio lean burn engine. I always believed if you design the engine to produce low emissions, versus tacking on components after the fact that you would inevitably make it more tamper proof, but technologically it was impossible until certain evolutionary technologies came on the scene. One was computational capability, second was ultra high pressure direct injection, third was multiple injection events during the actual combustion event, fourth was utilizing exhaust gas re-circulation through Atkinson like events and individual control of cam lift and phasing of the individual camshafts.

HCCI is the descendant of lean burn, which is a descendant of stratified charge (like prechamber diesels of long ago, without the emissions issues. If they can achieve true HCCI where every part of the air-fuel mixture is the same ratio of fuel and air with complete atomization and simultaneous ignition of every molecular combination, then they can pass emissions without after treatment of any kind. Emissions levels drop to 0 of all relevant measurable quantities.

I always thought it would be impossible to achieve HCCI without giving the mixture more time to become homogeneous. Maybe they accomplished this with the multiple injections and if so then they have really achieved a game changer.

The essence of evolution is competition.

[gregsfc]

I think the whole auto industry is taking notice to see what Mazda will have. Almost all the hype lately has been on hybrid and electric concepts / pre production and new production vehicles, and while I'll keep an open mind, until something less costly than the current lithium-ion battery replacement on down the line or some kind of battery trade out program for fuelling, or a more practical fuel for fuel cells besides hydrogen, I'm looking closer at other technologies for the near future.

Hyundai recently announced that they were dropping their HCCI program due to the fact that the exhaust-treatment systems that would be needed were too close to the cost of a diesel, so what was then the point of HCCI? And then that makes me wonder about Mazda's engine. I've seen this before where Honda announced (hey) we're going to go all out diesel except for Civic and below, only to find out they didn't realize how hard and expensive it was going to be to certify them. Has Mazda looked at this all the way to the dealership showroom?

But Mazda isn't the only one working hard at this. Nautilus Engineering from Wichita, KS USA is claiming a much more simple system that would be cheaper than even today's engines, because it doesn't require fuel injection of any kind that's more akin to a carbureted system. It homogenizes the air fuel before it's entered into the chamber. We all need to avoid the tendency to think or believe that all older technologies have peaked and looked at in every different way, and the tendency to think that just because a huge automaker hasn't found a practical solution that someone smaller can't solve it just by approaching things a different way.

The following could be just hogwash as we've seen it time and time again, however, what if it's totally legitimate and they've thought it all the way through!
Nautilus Engineering | The Nautilus Cycle (HCI/HCCI)

[Draigflag]

In my opinion, yes there is plenty of life left in the ICE, but automakers are so keen not to miss the market with the electric revolution, they're litterly investing billions into research and development. All the big names are talking of building giga factories like Tesla's, and with glass and solid state batteries being developed now, charging times will be just a few minutes and the range will be 400+ miles. It will take time, but it's happening right now. Our time with inefficient polluting noisy machines is coming to end.