Let's talk WAI

[spotaneagle]

Originally Posted by Project84

Sorry, those are your words, not changed one bit.
The thought ever cross your mind to do the testing yourself, Mr. I Really Wanna Know?

Personally I don't care how or why it works. I just enjoy reaping the benefits it gives my car/my wallet. My city average is 27-28, it should be 21 according to EPA. I drive the car as casual as any other motorist on the road, using zero hypermile techniques. I simply don't care at this point since gas is cheap(ish) again and not $4+/gal. For highway driving I just try to not exceed 70mph and even at 65 I'm still getting 36-38 mpg.

that guy should look into Audi, they built a car with a Warm Air Intake, I bet their cars work well with WAI

[spotaneagle]

Originally Posted by tjts1

This is inaccurate. A colder head/block temperature on a modern EFI motor will reduce the octane requirement and allow the ECU to run more timing for a given fuel octane thereby reducing fuel consumption.

maybe this whole thing is a case of certain brands vs another, what if what this guy is saying is correct in his case but not correct in my case, all the different combinations of settings and switches on cars have to lead to some invalid arguments on the basis of certain brands. but hey he's probably right, what I meant to say was, when you're block/coolant is cooler from startup your car will run at a higher rpm and therefor use more gas, god I mis-stated this, I think I meant to edit that and didn't

[spotaneagle]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

Warmer air means less fuel for the same volume of air-fuel mixture. Not the same mass since it is warmer but the same volume. Air density decreases as temperature increases, by about 25% from freezing to 200 degrees (both fahrenheit).



Gary

you ask where do the gains come from?
where did 5% come from again? thats 25% and maybe an extra 8% from recycled heat
=
30% or so like I said

or we could try to meander in the correllation of this to that.. cause your car's CPU doesnt like WAI, if the subject were a huge test question
the answers would be

a. thats 25% and maybe an extra 8% from recycled heat

b.Combination of effects of 6 or more sensors and what your computer thinks of them

c. Snake Oil

d. Placebo

[spotaneagle]

The Big question is:
WHERE DO THE GAINS COME FROM?

I choose a and the last part of b in the case of Non Saturns

but anyhow, im not saying that you shouldn't try to track down the route of the cause of the MPG increase, I'm just clearly stating a logical path to start it on.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

a few things that I am wondering about is how a person with a race car has issues with spending ~$10 for an actual WAI setup, how an engineer doesn't understand that the data set collected from laypeople would be much different from actual research projects, why this same engineer would rely on data tanken by others (especially lay people) rather than do the research for themselves, expect others to have time for it when they themselves do not?

I work in engineering myself (electrical engineering if it matters). a lot of the reasoning behind the lack of information on the subject is due to it's importance. the reasoning behind why it works (for the ones it works well for) isn't near as important as the fact that it does work. most of us have demanding jobs, families, other aspirations. gassaving is more of an idle hobby for me. a lot of what I have done is more for the reason to see if I can actually do it more than the net affect of it working or not.

my thought process on the WAI was more like this. it is very inexpensive to get started and I had adequate gauges to monitor it (via the scangauge) so I really don't mess anything up. I can monitor the results with my gaslog. I don't have to mess with programmers or purchase software to log data in order to see the results. if it didn't work for me, it is easily removeable and reversable (I plan to utelize this feature during my next inspection).

I guess someone could go through the trouble to monitor some data logging program to see exactly what is going on but the program costs money, the interface costs money, the data would be very specific (just for that make and model and possibly specific year). in the end, none of that data would affect the end result. if you did find a way to refine it further, I doubt very seriously that those increased gains would come anywhere near paying back the startup cost of all the equipment involved or the time and effort put into gathering the data.

I went out to eat this past thursday for lunch and my meal was $7.62 (for me alone obviously). I could have brought my lunch from home and almost paid for my WAI. I am just having a very hard time with $10 being a large investment.

maybe the end result of the thread will be more concrete information on why the WAI works and why it works on some models and not others. possibly, the knowledge base will grow that much more.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

the concept of all this being snake oil is an interesting one.

my thing about that is that there is no aftermarket gizmo for sale here. most snake oil salesmen are selling something. we are suggesting that you go out and buy some metal tape, dryer vent hose, and window flashing. unless someone here works for lowes home improvements, nobody is gaining anything from anyone else trying it.

the concept of unbelieveable gains from a product that you can only purchase from me....that's snake oil

sharing an idea that really worked for me and has for others that none of us will gain from (gain from sharing the idea, not MPG gains) isn't snake oil

personally, I am more inclined to hear out a person that isn't selling a product or doesn't give a web link where I can purchase something than I am a person that is and does (you know, a real salesman)

[FrugalFloyd]

Sorry, but there are no 25%, 33%, or 50% WAI gains. Spotaneagle and Project84 are the only two claiming these large gains. Spot only has two tanks recorded for his car, showing no mileage gain. Project84's car also shows no gain. From July 08 through this winter, his city mileage has stayed right at 25-27 mpg. What correlates with good mileage in his mileage log is his highway trips in summer '08. That's when he got his 43 mpg tank and all his 30+ mpg tanks. It wasn't his WAI. It was his highway drives.

[FrugalFloyd]

Darin at metrompg has done ABA testing with a WAI, and found no benefits.

[drifttec101]

I really don't think a WAI is "snake oil," and I also really think the people on this forum, and forums similar, are more than just lay people. Where else is the knowledge base going to come from? I read this forum for a long time before I decided to post because I really wanted to get an idea of why things work. Out of everything I've read, I think a WAI is the best idea. So, I wanted to really dig into the reasoning behind it.

I think we all understand the basic concept of less oxygen requires less fuel to keep the same air/fuel ratio. But, for some people this works incredibly well and for others not at all. That's what sparks my curiosity. I don't have a problem with 10$ and race cars are expensive, but that is really really beside the point. Of course no one is going to spend hundreds on data acquisition equipment. My point to data logging is that no one has a real understanding of why this works or doesn't work. If some more concrete evidence existed then that real data could be applied to anyone's car.

The analogy is this: You could memorize "2+2=4" or you could understand that counting two, twice is four. The former requires you to memorize addition, the latter allows you to understand it. If you understand something then you can use that knowledge to expand and, for example, add 3+2....

And let's not underestimate the placebo effect either. If you do something to your car that you think (and want) to improve mileage then you may just drive a touch more conservatively yielding better mileage. My reason for bringing that up is that city driving is extremely touchy. Since my car is manual I can really kill my gas mileage by accelerating hard in 1st gear, or I could do much better by being conservative. So you can see how wildly the placebo effect could change results. That's why I said before I think you need a solid year of real world testing on each setup before you determine what's actually working.

The 2.5'' shop vac hose is $19.99 at any hardward store. I'm going to buy it and I will test this out. I just bought some weather stripping to help seal the stock air intake box. I'm really interested to see what happens.

[severach]

Originally Posted by Project84

You don't get a 31mpg car to 46mpg by luck.

I have a 1998 Delta 88, curb weight 3900 pounds. According to the ScanGauge it gets

33MPG average @ 70 MPH on cruise
41MPG average @ 55 MPH on cruise

I have a Buick Park Avenue, same size, same engine, with a factory MPG minder and it shows the same averages. These are continuous speed averages. Some trip averages can be close but tank averages are lower. 33 MPG has been verified over a long trip. 41 MPG has not been verified over a long trip though gauge movement over medium trips seems to indicate that it is correct.

The Delta 88 has seen a cocktail of gas additives and has a butterfly controlled WAI so I can dial the temperature in fairly exactly. The additives are not required to attain the MPG. The Park Avenue has not seen any gas additives, has no mods, and was tested on a >90*F day. Both get the same MPG when the intake air is at least 70*F, and preferably about 95*F. As IAT drops below 70*F the 41 MPG at 55 MPH rapidly fades to 33 MPG.

Originally Posted by tjts1

I tried HAI on 3 different cars. It increased fuel consumption on all of them.

No other large or small car available to me can get these MPG averages at any speed at any IAT.

Originally Posted by drifttec101

The whole point to this thread was to show that all mods we do essentially detune your car, and a shortcut to doing that would be to press the gas peddal less.

Pressing the pedal less slows the car down and that does save gas. Not everyone can slow down and a WAI can improve MPG without cutting speed. As an added benefit cutting speed with a WAI can result in further gains.

Originally Posted by drifttec101

If the OEM could improve efficiency by 50% or 100% by some simple modification they would do it.

No they won't. For a MPG experiment I went on a quest to find a GM full size RWD, Caprice or Roadmaster. I asked each seller what the MPG was and I got EPA += 20%. While running I could tell that not a single one was hitting on all eights so anything near EPA was just wrong. They had no idea what the mileage was. These people were poor as church mice and neither knew nor cared what the mileage was. All they knew was that it took $ per week to drive. Rich people don't care about MPG unless it benefits a photo opportunity. Auto companies know rich and poor buyers prefer power and other amenities over mileage so we keep getting the same as we always have.

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

Its the same reason that in the old days you had to preheat the air going into the carburetor to prevent carb icing. Since the gasoline wont freeze until close to 100 degrees below zero, how can it freeze in a carburetor below 60 degrees? The answer is it doesn't really freeze, it just doesn't properly atomize.

The icing at the carburetor wasn't from the fuel. It was from the air and mainly when the air is humid and is just above 32*F so the temperature drop at the ventiuri can get the water vapor to precipitate out as ice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor_icing

No venturi, no problem.