Hho

[GasSavers_BEEF]

if I did something to my car and it did wonderously, I for my own knowledge would want to know how it works just for my own understanding.

I am a firm believer in knowledge is power so if you don't understand something (whatever it is) then learn. if you don't understand how it works then how can you repeat it or better yet perfect it?

you keep talking about the inefficiencies of the ICE (internal combustion engine) which is not in question but that inefficient engine is the power source for your hydrogen generator making it less efficient at the power source.

I am not arguing that you can make hydrogen or that you can run a car on hydrogen.... well my arguements don't seem to make a difference anymore, people are still going to claim that they are doubling their mileage and the moderators will keep taking the threads off of here so I am not sure what else to say.

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

Beef: That's exactly the sort of thing we're trying to do: understand it to some degree. We're doing a lot of experimentation with it and new developments are coming along every day...that we often don't understand, but get results from. A good example is the zerofossilfuels videos.
As a bodybuilder we go through the same thing: guys with tons of anecdotal evidence and labcoats who explain or explain away why things work or don't. But even there the labcoats have to scratch their heads and say "We just don't know" at the amassed results that often fly in the face of conventional wisdom. And we have discovered new and useful things using their science, like not having to eat every 3 hours.
I just feel that the same thing is happening with HHO, and it seems to be working for me. I'll be the first to post when something doesn't work. We're not even sure with big engines if all the savings just come from idling time or not. OTOH, many guys go on long trips to document their MPG's, usually with smaller engines than v-8's tho.
I'm not saying it's better than H20 injection or that it's perfect. I hate the amps I'm using to produce over a liter/min. So we continue to try and develop a low amp/ high production cell. The japanese seem to have done it.

[GasSavers_Russ]

i have one of the online manuals some where ill host it and leave you the address unless you know a way i can post a site on this forum, or just the files so you can download it, its one of them ones you're meant to pay for and get 3 designs so there is a lot of blabber in there, but if you gave a brows the facts and designs where to get the bits are there to just forget the first few pages.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Originally Posted by Russ

i have one of the online manuals some where ill host it and leave you the address unless you know a way i can post a site on this forum, or just the files so you can download it, its one of them ones you're meant to pay for and get 3 designs so there is a lot of blabber in there, but if you gave a brows the facts and designs where to get the bits are there to just forget the first few pages.

Personally if this stuff worked, I'd be building one tonight. I am curious, and think there is potential in the concept. If you have the plans & manuals in an electronic format such as a PDF file send me a PM. I think I can host it in my FTP space, depending on how large it is.

-Jay

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

I finally had a little time to look at the OU site this morning and here's an example of what I see all over the place in the way of anecdotes - hard to ignore hundreds getting results:
http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1882
That site is much older than our new HHOinfo.com site so there are other designs and much info new to me. Including many saying the Smack unit is actually pretty poor, but mine was modified from the start. Smack himself said it wasn't the best; just easy to make.

[GasSavers_gassaver]

Originally Posted by quadancer@bellsouth.net

I finally had a little time to look at the OU site this morning and here's an example of what I see all over the place in the way of anecdotes - hard to ignore hundreds getting results:
http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1882
That site is much older than our new HHOinfo.com site so there are other designs and much info new to me. Including many saying the Smack unit is actually pretty poor, but mine was modified from the start. Smack himself said it wasn't the best; just easy to make.

Yes, beside the Oupower.com group there are two other groups also getting results at:

http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/index.php

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/watercar/

With this many active users getting results, the question is not if it works, but how well can you make it work.

The educational division of the National Hydrogen Association also talks about it on their H2&You website.

http://www.h2andyou.org/caseStudies/injection.asp

Over 50 million miles of road testing is hard to ignore.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

quadancer, if all you say is true, then why don't you of all people have a gas log. look at mine see how it fluctuates. I don't exagerate and I don't make excuses. in the end "it is what it is" so where is yours.

I work in engineering where designs are simulated and simulated and when the design comes out it is tested in real world and yes there are differences but the calculations get you close and the real world sells the part. there are always factors not considered but in the end you account for as much as you can and go from there. Do I have all the answers? no, but neither does anyone else. that is more my point, if you are experimenting whole heartedly then share that data, let everyone see it and go from there. if it is working show results. where are anyones gas logs. I show mine from my grill block and warm air intake which are proven to work but I still show the data because I like to share my findings.

I am not trying to rail you here and I apologize if it sounds that way but if I tried something and it made a good amount of difference then I would note it in my gas log and start a thread, usually post pics and prices of materials. I usually use crap from lowes and walmart.

I said I didn't have anything else to say....well crap

[GasSavers_Russ]

I would love to have logs but i cant get my hed round all that stuff sorry i am very good with my mined and being hands on but not at recording data and so on.

If there is anything your wondering i am more than happy to answer your questions as best i can,

i am going to try get some data for you guys

Russ . .

[101mpg]

Quadancer - I appreciate the answers you've given here. "I see all these anecdotes, here's a forum link for those, I am seeing positive results, etc." These are positive things.

Many, including myself, look forward to you and others posting your gaslogs, including "this worked, this made things worse," etc.

Personally I am on a quest to figure out how Smokey Yunick and others have made vehicles run on gasoline vapor, sort of like 376milespergallon.com vehicle. Make that run a series hybrid....you might end up with 500 MPG and foreign oil would cease to be a concern for the US.

I too have heard anecdotes about the gas vapor engine, including someone I knew personally who had a science teacher in High School who made such an engine, and he disappeared one day after a big payoff. Can't get ahold of him - I tried with modern search methods. He modified a Corvette that ran for over 24 hours off the vapors of a pint of gasoline - idling only. It apparently was drivable, just not sure of the MPG.

In its place I'm eventually converting a CRX to propane - long life engine, nearly no wear. That's my tangent to the HHO issue - I understand about where you come from, but I too want more info. Imagine HHO and propane...

[Rower4VT]

HHO proponents testify that you'll increase gas mileage 10-45%. If this were true then you'd be use A LOT of hydrogen, a lot more than you could produce from an HHO generator. Even if you optimistically estimate that you can get 2 times the miles out of a kilo of hydrogen than you could out of gas, and then assume that the hydrogen is only accounting for 20% increase in your fuel mileage, so we'll say conservatively that you're getting an additional 5 miles from the hydrogen per gallon of gas consumed...Let's assume a vehicle that gets 25mpg. That 5 miles, once again "conservatively" would use 1/13th of a kilo of hydrogen. If you were to drive 25 miles round trip in a commute then you would need 1/13th a kilo of hydrogen to increase mileage 20%. A 1/13 kilo = 0.08 kilos. There is about 0.42 kilos in a gallon of water. So a quart would offer you about one-and-a-quarter "commutes" and that is if you could use every drop of water in the HHO generator (given a 1 qt. capacity generator)...which you can't. I don't have an HHO but I'm assuming that the electrodes need to stay covered with water to work, so if you have a 1 qt. HHO then the usable amount of water is well less than a pint, which would only allow you that 20% increase in mileage for about 10-15 miles before you have to fill up the water tank again. If you question my numbers and findings, then pick up a chemistry book, do some research, and find out for yourself. How often do you have to refill a HHO? If you have to fill it everyday, how much water do you add? Using my "optimistic" numbers, see how much mileage you could theoretically get from the hydrogen you produced. Once again you can only get .42 kilos or .92 pounds of hydrogen from a whole gallon of water.

Here is the kicker argument: The perpetual motion machine. If indeed you are getting more energy from the hydrogen you produced from the HHO generator than you put into it, you have to assume that most engineers/physicist/chemist are wrong when they say that it takes about as much energy to get the hydrogen as you get out of it when you use/burn it. Let's assume they are wrong and that these HHO proponents are right. SO then we are getting more energy out of the hydrogen than it takes to get it. If this is true then why not put a bigger alternator on our engines, fill a tank in the trunk with water, and increase our mileage by 80%!! HHO proponents say we get more energy out of the hydrogen than we're putting into it, so this must work!

If anyone has the science or absolute proof that this could work, then PLEASE tell me. I would love to win a nobel prize and put a 20 gallon HHO in the back of every American's car. Our dependence on foreign oil would all but go away. This is great!!

Disregard the sarcasm if you can. And please provide alternative "numbers" and "scientific proof" if you can. Ultimately, I'm just trying to save you money from a scam that simply is as impossible as a perpetual motion engine.