Got into a bad discussion about FE

[theholycow]

You're not a jerk. They are. However, you're not entirely without fault; you knew they don't like you, you knew they don't like what you do, and you knew they aren't open-minded about FE...but you still hung around there and talked about FE.

You want to know if you were a jerk, and while it doesn't sound like you were, here are some individual faults I can point out. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to be argumentative, just sharing what I've learned from many, many years on newsgroups, mailing lists, and forums. Hold on to your hat.

Here you should have gotten the clue:

Originally Posted by Project84

I have complained about being "singled out" and "preyed on" to the moderators and club president and they all pretty much gloat and disregard it.

At that point, it's obvious that you're not welcome there. In an attempt not to be jerks, the moderators/president did not ban you at that point, since you hadn't really done anything wrong; but you were really in the wrong place, among the wrong people at that time.

I've been fed up w/ them for some time, and basically just sticking around giving them the benefit of the doubt, hoping they'd eventually tire of always nagging me, but it never happened, and it led to the most recent event, me leaving the forum/group.

What were you getting out of staying there? What was there to gain? It doesn't exactly sound like the most efficient way to get technical data. There are surely dozens of large F-body forums, some of which would have a much more laid-back, non-exclusive, helpful culture.

I just feel like, even though I was trying to direct a thread in a certain way, to focus on a topic they all know I'm interested in, MPG...

Herding cats, eh? Why would you do that? You say that you are interested...but they aren't interested. A forum is a place for shared interests. Blogs are more appropriate for individual interests.

they used it against me and singled me out, demanded I tell them all what I've invested time/effort/money into learning about. That's just wrong.

WTF? That's what we do here. That's what most technical forums are about. We tell eachother what we've invested our time/effort/money into learning about, so that they can learn more easily. We sum it up, repackage it, and present it to the individual in a way that fits them...or at least we try to.

I related it to the same principle as competitive drag racing. You aren't going to show up at a race and ask all the competitors, hey man, I own this same car and I can't break the 12's, what's done to your engine?? You'd get laughed at and sure as hell wouldn't get a definitive answer.

But this isn't a competition, it isn't a drag race, and if you're going to brag about your FE on an automotive forum you should be ready to back it up -- not only should you share the information (because it deserves to be shared and everybody deserves easy access to it), but you have to back it up just so they believe you instead of thinking you're spouting bullschitt. Sure, ok, you don't care if they believe you -- but then why would you post it?

So if you posted it, you want to communicate it, and you want to be believed. With FE being such an alien topic for people in general, and automotive speed enthusiasts in specific, you have to back it up with simple but complete explanations (which is rather difficult -- we get such great FE because we spend a huge amount of effort/time learning and practicing, even with the support of others on this forum summing/repackaging/presenting the data).

Believe me, it's happened to me. So I employed the same principle in my response that if they wanted to learn the "secrets" they'd have to do their own legwork, but it was all out here on the WWW for anyone to find.

That part was jerky.

Perhaps I'm the jerk? I'm still trying to figure out who was in the wrong.

They are the jerks, but you pulled some jerky, some wrong, and some thick-headed moves. You should have disappeared quietly from that forum a long time ago, but it sounds like you were getting some fulfillment out of the conflicts (everyone needs a little conflict in their life, even if they don't want it). To stay for conflict value, if done intentionally (which it doesn't sound like you did), is to become a troll.

[GasSavers_GasUser]

Project84.......Ok, so I read through this whole thing......and now my head is spinning so I gotta tell you that you just ran across some stupid people. Remember that ignorance can be educated, but stupid is forever. There's nothing you can do with stupid, so let it go, and certainly do not go back there, and don't get an ulcer over it.

Dave

[Project84]

LOL thanks GasUser... that helps a lot! I'm 100% on the same page as you.

As for getting fulfillment out of the conflict over the past year... yeah, that's actually probably an accurate statement. I did however want things to change, but once the cycle started, they were relentless, as was I.

Not trying to debate here, but holycow, you make some good points, but some of your points I do not agree with. Like the one specific to telling that group to do a google search, well, that's how I found gassavers.org and it was ultimately only my OWN motivation that brought me here... if these people wanted to learn about improving FE, I'm not the type to do their homework for them so we can all have an A+ in Fuel Efficiency, and the fact I was bullied AND ridiculed at the same time by many, really put me off to even thinking of helping them find the "secrets" they were looking for.

Good thing I'm not in public relations... maybe it's the fact that I'm a jack of all trades maintenance man, and my day to day is fixing other people's messes because they were TOO STUPID to educate themselves on the equipment before using it; breaking it and then again, not caring enough to learn how to fix it themselves.... so my job goes hand in hand w/ the people of that forum, useless individuals who don't care enough to learn, but want someone else to fix it for them.

I'm done venting.... sorry.

[GasSavers_JoeBob]

What it all comes down to is this: be tolerant of others. Everybody has their own agenda. Everybody has things which excite them. You, Project84, love fuel economy. Here you are among people who share the same interest as yourself. On a Camaro/Firebird newsgroup, I would expect people to be more interested in 1/4 mile times and the like. That's OK. There's room in the world for both viewpoints. If you go to that newsgroup, enjoy it for what it is. Apparently that is why you originally went there. If it is no longer of interest to you, quietly and politely take your leave. No sense stirring up unnecessary hate and discontent. As TheHolyCow said, it is like herding cats. As someone who has tried, figuratively AND LITERALLY to herd cats, it is a tough job. And not very satisfying.

Some people are not interested in saving gas. No law says they have to be. I didn't have children. Personally, I believe that having children in a world which is approching 7 BILLION population is the height of irresponsibility. But that is just me. Others disagree, I'm fine with that, and I'll happily keep their children entertained. But I feel better knowing I have not contributed to the problem.

Let people know you are interested in saving gas. Don't force it down their throats. If they are interested, and you comport yourself in a gentlemanly manner, they will come to you when they are ready.

My time is done, and I thank you for yours.

[Snax]

Project84, so you don't actually have a mullett and they found out about it. Move on.

[DRW]

I've also felt the urge to flout my FE prowess on the other high performance car forum that I visit. I'm not so bold that I'd become confrontational about it. Instead, I wrote a tech article that covers the basics for saving gas while also adding a few advanced driving techniques for those who were interested. I also included a link to this website and a link to my gaslog. I wrote it 19 months ago, just as gas prices were beginning to soar. Today my tech article has over 3,500 views, so somebody is reading it. But they're not commenting on it, and the forums don't have many threads discussing FE. The tech article is there to help those who are interested, and they don't need to 'come out of the closet' and ask about it in front of their power hungry friends.
Here's a link to my tech article http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/sear...archid=5389655
I hope I've set a good example.

It's the few loudmouths who spoil the party. I have to wonder how many people reading your thread on the F'body forum are truely interested in FE and what you've learned, but didn't post because they were afraid of being shouted down by the others? Checking the number of views your thread recieved might be an indicator.

It's only human to push back when someone pushes you. Don't place your soapbox in front of a pusher.

[Project84]

It seems a lot of you have missed my point to the original post on that forum... as stated, it wasn't about MY FE, or hypermiling, it was merely asking others opinions on GM and spending $500M when they're on the virge of bankruptcy, on a 45mpg car... although they had similar offerings as far back as 20 years and they crushed those designs. I noted the Fiesta that Ford is bringing back and asked what they thought about GM not having any cars that their combined mileage is over 30mpg.

It was THEM that twisted my wrist and moved the discussion directly to the focus of my FE, my knowledge, and my "secrets" that I was withholding. In fact, one person expressed interest and that's the person I told to google "MPG forum" and after he watched all the others rip the thread apart, he never posted again, even after I addressed him. Only one other person replied in the manner I was expecting - addressing the statements I had made about GM and giving some kind of excuses as to why GM has little to no offering for a high mpg car, stating "the general public doesn't want a futuristic bubble car" as if to be aero friendly it has to be a bubble? Shows the mentality.

The thread had over 300 views but only about 22 replies, not counting all of my replies.

The only mention I made of hypermiling was to state that older cars from GM are "capable of exceeding 45mpg as has been proven by many hypermilers w/ little/no mods in some cases," I guess they took that as me spreading my gospel, and decided to attack in fear of brainwashing the other gear heads.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

WHAT!!!!!!!

a camaro and no mullet? that is like peanut butter and jelly man. you can't have one without the other. lol

honestly, I am a dodge guy myself and I have been looking at their fuel efficient line up (which is a joke). it confuses me that a huge company like dodge or chevy for that matter hasn't put more stock in making more fuel efficient cars for the states. I am sure they have cars with better FE that they offer to the european market. you would think that they would have at least one small car that gets 30+ combined. chevy does have the cobalt XFE which is better than I can say for dodge

[Mayhim]

I, too, thought I would wake up the day after I purchased my first Camaro with a full-blown mullet. Fortunately, I no longer have enough hair for that to happen. I have dodged that mullet (pun intended).

I have a 98 LS1 and frequent a large Camaro forum. A poll placed most owners in the high teens and low twenties in age. They have a constant need to stroke their manliness and constantly talk about horsepower and speed. Any time somebody pipes up with ways to save gas or gas money they are browbeaten with, "If you can't afford your Camaro, sell it and buy a Honda or Toyota.

The thread pops up sometimes about somebody wanting to know if it's ok to run their car on Regular gas. They are immediately set upon and ridiculed for not wanting absolutely as much horsepower as they can possibly get at all times "just in case they need to wax an uppity Mustang at a stoplight."

They'll grow out of it in time, and family needs.

They're snotty and full of themselves, and you can't change that. But you can lead them to knowledge. Some of them will walk away with a seed of need to understand, others won't . Be a beacon of light, Project 84, in a sea of youthful male know-it-all darkness.

Some will understand...

[Project84]

BEEF, Your idea is the same I had... basically just wanting to address some GM freaks and ask about how they felt about the lineup compared to 10-20 years ago pertaining to MPG.

Mr Incredible - oddly enough, members of the forum I'm complaining about would probably average in age around 32-35. Seriously though, it's odd over there, almost like people who have something because they think its cool, but none of them use the car for the intended purpose, although they all talk, and walk, the lifestyle of a drag racer. It's frustrating in itself. I may not be on the same page as you though. I think a fast car can be a daily driver, but in the end, it was built to be fast for a reason, and if you aren't going to let it stretch its legs occasionally, why own it? I'm not all about the power/speed factor, I just think most cars are purpose-built, so its reasonable to fulfill the purpose from time to time.

Anyway.... I have a '94 Z28 now, link here ---> 1994 Camaro Z28 Hey I just realized you can see my Saturn in the first pic on that page... haha

I'm a Dodge guy too, you can see my old Dodge Ram in my cardomain user profile, but I had to sell it to cover some bills... you can use my username on cardomain to look at my other cars.

Funny thing about the mullet is, I gave myself one for nearly a year just for the comedy of it, while I drove my yellow '84 Camaro. I made certain to blast the Journey and Foreigner as often as possible, wore flannel jackets, lived the whole 80's life that I missed due to being born in '85. lol

I'm some sort of nutcase I guess.