GM Sales of Hybrids Miserable

[RightontheMarc]

If you watch the great movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" you'll learn the worst part about GM's Hybrids is that they have stolen the technology of Energy Conversion Devices NiMH batteries by buying a controlling 60% share in the division that makes them, Cobasys. The shares were naively sold to GM with the interest that GM would have the intention of using the batteries to make the Impact EV1 electric cars. Without explanation GM destroyed almost EVERY ONE of the 3000+ electric cars they made without giving the owners a chance to buy them! When some owners demanded a right to buy them they had them arrested!

Here's the kicker. After they destroyed all the EV1s they sold that controlling share of the company to NONE OTHER THAN CHEVRON OIL COMPANY! As a result they force Cobasys to only produce small batteries for things such as laptop applications and a few large batteries for the Saturn faux "Hybrid". They refuse to sell larger batteries to consumers other companies wishing to convert their cars to electric drive or build electric vehicles. Our nation and world is basically being held hostage by a few criminally minded crooks in a handful of multinational corporations who have bought up all the patents or stakes in things and then shelved the technologies so they can't ever be used. They are trying to destroy our economy, our environment and us so they can have short term profits.

I went to an "earth day" festival at Oakland University (Detroit burbs) this weekend. GM had sales people trying to hock their "hybrids" there. The posted gas mileage each one of them got sucked. No one was falling for it and few people were checking them out. Last year when it actually was a science/earth day fair, engineers from Ford and Toyota were there to explain all the gritty details of their technologies. This year as all good things phase into it became more of a commercialized sales fair where all these companies were hocking their products. This year there were no tinkerers, no inventers, no scientists, and less local organic farmers.

I think the Ford Escape is ok for a hybrid as some are getting 36mpg and a couple 40mpg. That's not bad for an SUV. The thing is when people are shopping for a hybrid they are shopping for the MOST gas mileage they can get packaged with the most practical utility. Since it is hard to get more than a few shopping bags in an Insight the Prius would be the winner in that combination.

[Sludgy]

Originally Posted by RightontheMarc

Here's the kicker. After they destroyed all the EV1s they sold that controlling share of the company to NONE OTHER THAN CHEVRON OIL COMPANY! As a result they force Cobasys to only produce small batteries for things such as laptop applications and a few large batteries for the Saturn faux "Hybrid". They refuse to sell larger batteries to consumers other companies wishing to convert their cars to electric drive or build electric vehicles. Our nation and world is basically being held hostage by a few criminally minded crooks in a handful of multinational corporations who have bought up all the patents or stakes in things and then shelved the technologies so they can't ever be used. They are trying to destroy our economy, our environment and us so they can have short term profits.

Under Capitalism, no monopoly can last forever, because people find ways to work around them. NiMH batteries were once the sole practical choice for hybrids, but Cobasys has competition from Lithium batteries. Lithiums are going to destroy Cobasys eventually.

Lithium batteries are enormously superior because each LiFePO4 cell has three times the voltage of a NiMH cell, while having better energy density.

What's more, lithiums use iron and phosphorous, incredibly cheap and common elements. NiMH's use expensive Nickel and misch metal.

Every Tom Dick and Harry comapny is beginning to build large format lithiums: Johnson Controls, Saft, A123 Systems, and Valence Technologies. Not to mention several Chinese factories.

Right now, the biggest threat to EVs, PHEVs and HEVs are governments. Governments LOVE the gas tax. It's easy to tax gasoline, but much harder to tax electricity, particularly if you generate your own.

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by Sludgy

Right now, the biggest threat to EVs, PHEVs and HEVs are governments. Governments LOVE the gas tax. It's easy to tax gasoline, but much harder to tax electricity, particularly if you generate your own.

many here are quick to blast the oil companies, but fail to address this portion of the equation. hmmm...

[RightontheMarc]

Originally Posted by Sludgy

Under Capitalism, no monopoly can last forever, because people find ways to work around them.

What makes you think we live in a capitalist society? Because you are told we do? Sure some capitalism goes on here (mom & pop/joint or single proprietor businesses) but its mostly feudal oligarchy where corporations own the labor(serfs) that work on their land. The corporations also limit and control the market unfairly. According to the original definition of capitalism, Capitalism is defined as an economic, political and social system based on private ownership of property, business and industry, where the owners are the workers who are engaged in making the greatest possible profits.

Lithiums are going to destroy Cobasys eventually.

Seems like the only lithiums available are the tiny ones. Take the Tesla Roadster for example which has thousands of small batteries to power it. How do you service those when several of them go bad? Lithiums have a high chance of going bad within just a couple years. My laptop is proof of that. The battery lasted about 3 years. The thing is Cobasys was able to build large scale batteries that could have fit in people's cars who could make their own electric cars. Yet being 60% controlling owned by Chevron and GM they were prevented from selling them.

Right now, the biggest threat to EVs, PHEVs and HEVs are governments.

And who do you think lobbies the bejeebers out of the government to threaten those things? Here's a hint half the Bush administration is in the big oil business. Bush himself was/is. (this should be obvious/common household knowledge for most of you).

Governments LOVE the gas tax. It's easy to tax gasoline

The gas tax pays for our roads, and not very well at that. The state with the highest tax on Gasoline is Hawaii at 53.5 cents per gallon. http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/st...tate_2002.html
The federal is 18.4 cents.
www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
This is small potatoes compared to the cost of the crude. Even if they took off 72 cents a gallon the prices would still be over $3 a gallon. The oil companies/opec are deliberately limiting the production of crude inorder to rake in higher and higher profits from you.
http://www.click2houston.com/sh/auto...22-100251.html

For those who say the oil companies are not the one to blame are naive as hell. Those who say they are making the same profit margin of oft said "6% that they always have" seem to misunderstand that before when oil was $10 a barrel they were making .60 cents for every barrel. Now that it is $125 a barrel they are making $7.50 per barrel for billions of barrels. I mean let's stop bs-ing around here. According to the State Department's 323 page plan for Iraq's oil the Iraq war was designed specifically to destroy Opec's main competition.
http://www.gregpalast.com/bush-didnt...raq-you-fools/

"WMDs" and "terrorists" my arse.

Over 70,000 deaths, and over 1 million disabilities among American soldiers attributed to Iraq Wars says U.S. government data
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/hom.../21/02286.html

[Sludgy]

Originally Posted by RightontheMarc

Seems like the only lithiums available are the tiny ones.

The rest of your rant MIGHT approach credibility if you did SOME research on large format Lithiums.

Try Googling "Valence Technologoies", Saft, Johnson Controls and A123 Systems, and you'll see that there are a lot of companies making, or beginning to make big Lithium batteries.

And to further my point about monopolies, one company is even beginning to make the old lead-acid battery more energy dense using carbon foam. This battery will have an energy density better than NiMH. It's a spinoff company from a good old U.S.A. capitalist company, Caterpillar:

http://www.illinoisvc.org/pages/firefly/264.php

Maybe someone will make a battery from tinfoil. Then you can trade in your hat. (or, your cat's.)

[RightontheMarc]

Originally Posted by Sludgy

The rest of your rant MIGHT approach credibility if you did SOME research on large format Lithiums.

Try Googling "Valence Technologoies", Saft, Johnson Controls and A123 Systems, and you'll see that there are a lot of companies making, or beginning to make big Lithium batteries.

And to further my point about monopolies, one company is even beginning to make the old lead-acid battery

I guess like many of you who think being informed is a "rant" you just do not have the ability to think critically. Notice on each one of your statements you said BEGINNING. I said, available as in now. None of these are feasibly available NOW nor are ready for personal applications in gas to electric conversion. If they were AVAILABLE now companies like Tesla would be using them. There are also reliability issues which you did not address. Furthermore since I backed up my comments with documentation, it was all 100% credible. What you wrote on the other hand is just speculation.

What's more, is I am not arguing with you on the possibility of up and coming battery technology. I think it is excellent and I will be converting one of my cars to electric as soon as the engine dies (or sooner). I am just trying to get the facts straight on the other ridiculous things you wrote like implying the government is acting alone when limiting alternative (to oil) technologies. Oh yeah, and what part of the meaning of capitalism did you miss? Caterpillar owns it's workers right? You do understand that is feudalism don't you? This is why stock options were being offered in recent years by many companies so that employees could have part ownership in the companies and share in the profits as is more true to the meaning of capitalism. You know the English word.

[Sludgy]

[QUOTE=RightontheMarc;99701] What you wrote on the other hand is just speculation.

[QUOTE]


There is NO speculation. If you had bothered to do the research on just the first battery manufacturer that I listed, you would see that these large format batteries are already for sale.

Thinking critically, you should have researched the facts before making stupid, incorrect statements.

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by RightontheMarc

Our nation and world is basically being held hostage by a few criminally minded crooks in a handful of multinational corporations who have bought up all the patents or stakes in things and then shelved the technologies so they can't ever be used. They are trying to destroy our economy, our environment and us so they can have short term profits.

certainly this is a very broad generalization. as with many things, the individual is the problem and the solution.

those that do not vote, stay informed, wish to work hard, fail to eat right and exercise, etc ARE at the mercy of big corps and govt. THIS too is just a generalization as some(few), situations are the exception.

www.naturalcures.com/

take Trudeau's view...dubbed as a con-artist, there are absolutely MANY, MANY, MANY truths in his books. be it the fed govt, the pharmeceutical industry, or big oil, many play the game. at least for now, world economics revolves around the production of oil.

the drug companies in my view are much worse. as previously stated, it is plausible that new medical tech and cures for diseases are being supressed by these wonderful people. the sick part is we are paying THEM to kill us slowly. that said, in extreme medical situations, they do serve a purpose, which leads to my next point...

MANY companies out there do care about long term benefits of the eco system and certainly about their employees and the future success of its existance.

there IS new tech enabling mankind to drill with little or no affect on nature if done RESPONSIBLY. we must hold them(the drillers) to it.

we as consumers are just as at fault as big oil and govt with irresposible purchases and over consumption.

now, back to the thread topic... IF hybrid SUVs were more efficient, would there be more sales? its uncertain at the present premium price. maybe if prices come down. i too wish the E car would come back tho!

[opelgt73]

Originally Posted by bowtieguy

now, back to the thread topic... IF hybrid SUVs were more efficient, would there be more sales? its uncertain at the present premium price. maybe if prices come down. i too wish the E car would come back tho!

I think there would be more sales. Fuel economy is what killed 99% of sales. If there was a full size SUV that got 35mpg, they would still be selling well.