Fuel Efficient Engine Builders?

[Sludgy]

The Chevy small block V8 has more aftermarket engine parts than any other. Take 305, and add tons of parts: Hollow crankshaft, aluminum con rods, roller lifters, titanium valve keepers, high compression pistons, and aluminum heads. Add a few low drag devices like an electric water pump and fan.

BUT, instead of the typical (ridiculous) high lift cam with huge overlap, install a truck cam (high torque at low RPM). Add a 5 speed overdrive tranny and 3.08 gears. Put that inside an old Camaro, which has low frontal area and a decent drag coefficient.

I'll bet it would get 35 mpg highway, and still smoke the tires in first gear.

[northboundtrain]

Hello.

Great site. I've gotten into rebuilding engines recently, and the thought of openning up a fuel efficient rebuild shop has crossed my mind more than once. I'd love to do it, but I'm not sure the market is there. Engine rebuilders focus on speed and power because that is where the money is. Driving fast cars is something a lot of people devote a huge portion of their lives (and disposable income) to.

Most people want fuel efficient cars to save money. Sure there's plenty of other reasons, but in the end, the mods would would have to pay for themselves (or come pretty close) for most people to want to throw down the necessary thousands of dollars. In addition, the only cars you would be modifying are older out of warrenty vehicles. Given that the mods would take years to pay for themselves, Someone would have to be really into their car and plan on keeping it for many more years to make that kind of investment.

Where the market might exist is in taking older CRXs, Sprints, Metros, diesels, etc that you get for a song and then modifying and fixing them up. If you could get them into the 60+ mpg range and resell them for 8-10k then you might be able to pay yourself an okay wage if you could do it out of your garage with negligable overhead expenses.

I dunno, I'm being a little skeptical and playing devil's advocate to some extent because I'd like to hear someone respond convincingly to these arguments. It would be a really fun business if it could work.

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by northboundtrain

Hello.

Great site. I've gotten into rebuilding engines recently, and the thought of openning up a fuel efficient rebuild shop has crossed my mind more than once. I'd love to do it, but I'm not sure the market is there. Engine rebuilders focus on speed and power because that is where the money is. Driving fast cars is something a lot of people devote a huge portion of their lives (and disposable income) to.

Most people want fuel efficient cars to save money. Sure there's plenty of other reasons, but in the end, the mods would would have to pay for themselves (or come pretty close) for most people to want to throw down the necessary thousands of dollars. In addition, the only cars you would be modifying are older out of warrenty vehicles. Given that the mods would take years to pay for themselves, Someone would have to be really into their car and plan on keeping it for many more years to make that kind of investment.

Where the market might exist is in taking older CRXs, Sprints, Metros, diesels, etc that you get for a song and then modifying and fixing them up. If you could get them into the 60+ mpg range and resell them for 8-10k then you might be able to pay yourself an okay wage if you could do it out of your garage with negligable overhead expenses.

I dunno, I'm being a little skeptical and playing devil's advocate to some extent because I'd like to hear someone respond convincingly to these arguments. It would be a really fun business if it could work.

Well here's my rational. I'm tired of having the auto industry tell me that "Statistically", as an American car driver, all I want is a bulky, inefficient SUV, which has horsepower over Fuel Efficiency.

Secondly, there a cars in Europe like the VW Lupo, or the Audi A2 which get 78 MPG U.S. that will never be allowed into this country.

Finally, to add insult to injury, they've been trying to pass off some ugly looking hybrid costing over $20,000, which only averages 50 to 60MPG.
50to 60MPG! For God sake, Geo Metros and the Honda Civic CRX HF were doing that over 16 years ago, while costing significantly less than $20,000. Not to mention the added expense of replacing the lithium batteries within 8 to 10 years. Furthermore, a fuel efficient car does not have to cost that much or look like some obscure, flamboyet, quasi-futuristic rollerskate.

Bearing all that in mind, including the increasing cost of a gallon of gas, I think that there would be a market...All it would take are a few dedicated engine builders who have the "Know How", that are willing to step foward, make Fuel Efficient mods that work and be able to quantify there results.

As far as "throwing down the necessary thousands of dollars", I feel think that by taking an already fuel efficient Geo Metro, CRX HF or Honda Vx, and tweaking it to be more fuel efficient, it would be far cheaper than buying some hybid for over 20K. Not to mention, you'll have a better running car that can also be tweaked to be more reliable...again, being far cheaper then the auto industry.

Bottom line, we need to turn speculation into fact, by separating what might work to what will work. The point is that like the early hotrodder, we need to take our FE Mods that we've learned in the backyard and turn them into a professional service.

[northboundtrain]

Originally Posted by Davo53209

As far as "throwing down the necessary thousands of dollars", I feel think that by taking an already fuel efficient Geo Metro, CRX HF or Honda Vx, and tweaking it to be more fuel efficient, it would be far cheaper than buying some hybid for over 20K. Not to mention, you'll have a better running car that can also be tweaked to be more reliable...again, being far cheaper then the auto industry.

Bottom line, we need to turn speculation into fact, by separating what might work to what will work. The point is that like the early hotrodder, we need to take our FE Mods that we've learned in the backyard and turn them into a professional service.

My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

Are these figures realistic?

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by northboundtrain

My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

Are these figures realistic?

QUOTE=northboundtrain;39237]My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

You are absolutely right. It would take more than just the engine to increase Fuel Economy; but what I'm referring to is either a Geo Metro, Honda Crx Hf or VX that already gets 50mpg. If you could at least have one of those vehicals modified so that you could get 10 extra gallons per mile, then would would certainly have something worth having.

You are also right in saying that there are people who only want their cars for five years; but I'm one of those guys who'd be willing to build a car from the ground up and keep it indefinately. I personally don't see it as being any less practical, then the guy who soups some import, races it illegally so as to impress his friends, or ultimately blow the motor. To me that's ego and money wasted. I'm just trying to find trying to save gas in the long-run. But before committing to any expense, I like many others, are attempting to find the information that needed to achieve our fuel Efficient goals. That's why I like this site some much.

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Are these figures realistic?[/QUOTE]

[skewbe]

re 50 mpg saturn: Tell you what, if I can drop a stick shift in my 96 sw2 and get 50mpg I'd be real happy. diamondlarry, whats your secret?

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by skewbe

re 50 mpg saturn: Tell you what, if I can drop a stick shift in my 96 sw2 and get 50mpg I'd be real happy. diamondlarry, whats your secret?

I would say my biggest key to my success would be the injector kill switch that allows me to FAS so easily. I have a suggestion for you if you do drop in a stick: make sure it comes from a SOHC car. The transmissions for DOHC's are geared much lower. If I were to ever get ambitious(like that will ever happen ) or come into some money, I would take the transmission out of my old SOHC and put it in my current car. With all of the computer garbage nowadays, it's possible that my DOHC's ECU could have a minor fit with a trans from a SOHC.

[skewbe]

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

I would say my biggest key to my success would be the injector kill switch that allows me to FAS so easily. I have a suggestion for you if you do drop in a stick: make sure it comes from a SOHC car. The transmissions for DOHC's are geared much lower. If I were to ever get ambitious(like that will ever happen ) or come into some money, I would take the transmission out of my old SOHC and put it in my current car. With all of the computer garbage nowadays, it's possible that my DOHC's ECU could have a minor fit with a trans from a SOHC.

Thanks for the tips larry, the swap is done, I'm quite happy with it. Now to get the wife to drive the metro so I can play with it

[DRW]

"The market, if there is one, is at the bottom end, not the top."

Maybe that's why Ford made the Escape Hybrid? And modern locomotives are deisel/electric (aka 'hybrid' if I used the modern catch phrase) ? This could also explain why most 18 wheelers around my area already have LED taillights.

[bzipitidoo]

One of the questions I've been thinking of asking is where can we get FE parts? The lightweight composite hoods for subcompacts, FE optimized camshafts for tiny 3 cyl engines, kits for adding skirts to rear wheel wells, and that sort of thing.

But I haven't asked, because from what I've seen the answer seems to be: nowhere. No one makes them, You have to do it yourself if you want that stuff. And that's an advantage for any aftermarket manufacturer thinking of giving this area a try: there'd be very little competition.

Next, the hot rodders get their competitions, why can't we have ours at the same race tracks? The FE version of the 1/4 mile would be the teaspoon (well, maybe a tablespoon) of gas. On each car, disconnect the regular gas tank and attach the special walnut sized tank, then see how far the car gets. Then we'd have the FE equivalent of 0-60 times: how far can your car go on a teaspoon of gas once it has reached 100 kph? I bet a few contests like that would raise interest.