Fuel Efficient Engine Builders?

[skewbe]

re 50 mpg saturn: Tell you what, if I can drop a stick shift in my 96 sw2 and get 50mpg I'd be real happy. diamondlarry, whats your secret?

[northboundtrain]

Originally Posted by Davo53209

As far as "throwing down the necessary thousands of dollars", I feel think that by taking an already fuel efficient Geo Metro, CRX HF or Honda Vx, and tweaking it to be more fuel efficient, it would be far cheaper than buying some hybid for over 20K. Not to mention, you'll have a better running car that can also be tweaked to be more reliable...again, being far cheaper then the auto industry.

Bottom line, we need to turn speculation into fact, by separating what might work to what will work. The point is that like the early hotrodder, we need to take our FE Mods that we've learned in the backyard and turn them into a professional service.

My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

Are these figures realistic?

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by northboundtrain

My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

Are these figures realistic?

QUOTE=northboundtrain;39237]My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

You are absolutely right. It would take more than just the engine to increase Fuel Economy; but what I'm referring to is either a Geo Metro, Honda Crx Hf or VX that already gets 50mpg. If you could at least have one of those vehicals modified so that you could get 10 extra gallons per mile, then would would certainly have something worth having.

You are also right in saying that there are people who only want their cars for five years; but I'm one of those guys who'd be willing to build a car from the ground up and keep it indefinately. I personally don't see it as being any less practical, then the guy who soups some import, races it illegally so as to impress his friends, or ultimately blow the motor. To me that's ego and money wasted. I'm just trying to find trying to save gas in the long-run. But before committing to any expense, I like many others, are attempting to find the information that needed to achieve our fuel Efficient goals. That's why I like this site some much.

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Are these figures realistic?[/QUOTE]

[cfg83]

theclencher -

Originally Posted by theclencher

Actually the more efficient the vehicle starts out as, the worse the expense/benefit equation becomes!

50 mpg / 15,000 m/year = 300 gallons;
@ $2/gallon = $600
@ $3/gallon = $900
@ $4/gallon = $1200.

60 mpg / 15,000 m/year = 250 gallons;
@ $2/gallon = $500, or $100 savings/year, over let's say 5 years, = $500 total savings, meaning you have to get the +10 mpg mods done for less than $500 just to achieve parity or break even, not to mention coming out ahead!
@ $3/gallon = $750, or $150 savings/year, over 5 years = $750... and so on.

So the applications where expensive FE mods really pay for themselves are those in which the original vehicle FE was really bad, it gets driven a lot of miles, and when gasoline costs more. An example of this would be a pickup truck used for lots of hauling- when the numbers are crunched it might actually be worthwhile to install that $2,500 overdrive unit- but most of the time it isn't.

Which reminds me of ...... the trucking industry!!!!!!

We need a trucker to join GasSavers.

CarloSW2

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by cfg83

diamondlarry -



I did more reading on the website and it looks pretty cool. Did you get the full "16 valve cylinder head porting" from him? How much did it cost and what is your estimate of the FE gains?

CarloSW2

I did get the "works" from him. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before, I never got to drive the car before he did the work to it. I bought it from a dealer in Paramus, NJ and, since he was closer and was actually going out that direction, he picked it up for me since I didn't have the time to take off from work. Because of that I don't have any before FE stats for before the mod.

As for the cost, we never really talked about it since he didn't charge me anything. He basically did it for free so he could get his work "out there" and get results coming in since I was one of the first ones. He did mention that he would probably charge in the $600-$800 range. It is very possible that he has lowered it since then so you would have to contact him for pricing.

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by skewbe

re 50 mpg saturn: Tell you what, if I can drop a stick shift in my 96 sw2 and get 50mpg I'd be real happy. diamondlarry, whats your secret?

I would say my biggest key to my success would be the injector kill switch that allows me to FAS so easily. I have a suggestion for you if you do drop in a stick: make sure it comes from a SOHC car. The transmissions for DOHC's are geared much lower. If I were to ever get ambitious(like that will ever happen ) or come into some money, I would take the transmission out of my old SOHC and put it in my current car. With all of the computer garbage nowadays, it's possible that my DOHC's ECU could have a minor fit with a trans from a SOHC.

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

This guy is into the performance/economy thing. He is under the impression that economy and performance don't have to be mutually exclusive. He is also the guy that did the work on my Saturn's.
http://powrehaus.com/about/

Yes! This is just the person that I was looking for! Someone who is dedicated towards building engines for the purpose of maximum FE. In fact, it's the whole reason why I started this post. The apparent bonus here is that he claims to add hp into the equation too. Frankly, I would rather settle on fuel efficiency(i.e being that I have a 3-cylinder in mind).

The price that he seems to be offering is very reasonable. I can honestly say that it is far less than what I was expecting; but finally, someone who is able to quote a price for the labor, without guessing on the cost.

Additionally, I am happy to hear that he did your engine for free just to get the word out. That tells me that he believes in what he is doing, and hopefully his work will catch on. If you happen to have anything else to add to your experience, or know anyone else who's had work done, please feel free to tell us more. In the meantime, I plan to make contact with this gentlemen, and hopefully get him to post on this site. Again Thanks. http://powrehaus.com/about/

[diamondlarry]

I'm glad I was able to help. I can say that Mike will work very hard to make sure it's right. I actually helped him when he was installing the head and I can say that he is very conscientious about doing things right. For him, good enough is not good enough; it has to be right. We worked until it was dark outside and then we worked some more with a drop cord until we decided to call it a night and come back out in the morning. Good luck trying to get him to post here. He's been very busy lately.

[northboundtrain]

Originally Posted by theclencher

Actually the more efficient the vehicle starts out as, the worse the expense/benefit equation becomes!

Exactly. The law of diminishing returns. Going from 50 mpg to 60 mpg -- a 20 percent improvement -- yields a savings of 50 gallons over 15,000 miles. Now take a vehicle getting only 20 mpg. It only has to improve to 21.4 mpg to save the same 50 gallons -- only a 7 percent improvement. If that 20 mpg vehicle improves 20 percent to 24 mpg, then it saves 125 gallons.

The market, if there is one, is at the bottom end, not the top.

[DRW]

"The market, if there is one, is at the bottom end, not the top."

Maybe that's why Ford made the Escape Hybrid? And modern locomotives are deisel/electric (aka 'hybrid' if I used the modern catch phrase) ? This could also explain why most 18 wheelers around my area already have LED taillights.