Ethanol Revisited

[rh77]

So, where are we now with Ethanol?

It seemed to be harder to find this year...

What's your opinion on E85 as an alternative?

RH77

[SVOboy]

Well, I think we're going to start seeing problems pretty soon, some of them already popping up...I'm more concentrating on gas-free living though, so I haven't delved too much into it.

[popimp]

Too corrosive and takes more energy to produce than it's worth.

[ffvben]

it would be nice if it was .50 cheaper than reg gas but my one station in Del. is the same as regular or a small bit cheaper. stopping every 2 days instead of 4-5days for a fill up is annoying too. yes , i like the idea of burning cleaner and 105 octane but the price is not worth it on my truck. $1.00 cheaper and i might add a extra tank or two.

[Mentalic]

I would not buy it if I had a choice. Its subsidized, and when made from corn the fertilizer run off creates water pollution that kills marine life in the Gulf.

[theclencher]

oil is subsidized!

corn is too, regardless

so eh

"Too corrosive and takes more energy to produce than it's worth."

use current data, not junk from the '70's

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm

[rh77]

Originally Posted by theclencher

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm

Good link, Clench. My first concern was the net energy value as well. With the cellulosic method of acquiring ethanol, that value increases significantly (as with cost).

Originally Posted by ffvben

it would be nice if it was .50 cheaper than reg gas but my one station in Del. is the same as regular or a small bit cheaper. stopping every 2 days instead of 4-5days for a fill up is annoying too. yes , i like the idea of burning cleaner and 105 octane but the price is not worth it on my truck. $1.00 cheaper and i might add a extra tank or two.

That may be the problem in locales other than middle-America. Here it was 50-cents cheaper than reg no-lead, probably due to distribution from local plants.

Some E85 vehicles are designed with larger tanks to compensate for the lower FE. I noticed that the Flex-Fuel Monte Carlo I rented this week had an 18-gallon tank to compensate for the interval! It went 450 miles on a tank of regular unleaded, but with E85 it turned out to be a regular interval.

Originally Posted by Mentalic

I would not buy it if I had a choice. Its subsidized, and when made from corn the fertilizer run off creates water pollution that kills marine life in the Gulf.

That's the feel that I'm trying to gather from members -- which is more environmentally sound... But what are some fuels that aren't subsidized? ...or is the solution to use less of the regular stuff?

Also, which is worse -- fertilizer runoff, or pollution from refineries? In this case, they can both effect the Gulf region.

RH77

[SVOboy]

Proooooopaaaaaane.

[ZugyNA]

http://www.joe-duarte.com/saved_news...market_IQ.html

"Ethanol: The Glut Has Arrived

Too Much Too Soon?

Anyone who bought shares of Pacific Ethanol (Nasdaq: PEIX) in November 2006 has received an 80% loss of their investment, and the reason seems to be that there is too much of the stuff just sitting around.

Ethanol was supposed to be the answer to the U.S. gasoline problem. But so far, after a huge bump in the early part of 2006, it has turned into a major bust.

According to the New York Times "companies and farm cooperatives have built so many distilleries so quickly that the ethanol market is suddenly plagued by a glut, in part because the means to distribute it have not kept pace. The average national ethanol price on the spot market has plunged 30 percent since May, with the decline escalating sharply in the last few weeks."

The distribution story should come as no surprise, given the fact that ethanol cannot be moved along conventional pipelines due to its proclivity to leak through the normal infrastructure that transports oil, gasoline, and other fuels.

The same thing is true of other storage facilities such as the traditional tanks that are buried under gas stations.

One professor, Neil E. Harl, an economics professor emeritus at Iowa State University who lectures on ethanol and is a consultant for producers, told the New York Times that the ethanol boom may be over, and that this is a "dangerous" time for investors."

[rh77]

So, it's a relatively "New" fuel source.

We have:

Development -> Refining -> Distribution -> Consumer

It looks a lot like the Oil Industry. Look back in History on the struggles of gasoline reaching the consumer -- especially when cars where first mass produced, during the Great Depression, WWII, and the Gas Crisis of the 70s.

I'm confident that distribution will sort itself out if demand is great enough.

Ben-

You mention Propane. How is that cleaner or more efficient than Natural Gas? Also, what are the Environmental impacts of the chain of acquisition-to-consumer-to-combustion. ???

RH77