E10 and the coming of winter blended gas

[ketel0ne]

Originally Posted by Matt Timion

I'm curious to know how ANYONE can run E85 in a gasoline designed vehicle. E85 is 85% ethanol, and will definately damage your vehicle if it isn't designed to run it.

E85 should only be used in flex-fuel vehicles, or vehicles designed for ethanol.

At least some version of the tahoe has been flex fuel since 2002

Chevrolet Tahoe 1500 2WD
8 cyl, 5.3 L, Auto(4), FLEX-FUEL, Gasoline or E85

Gas 14 18 $2456 11.7

E85 10 14 $3313 9.7

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by theclencher

You know this how?

As I've mentioned here before, I've run the '92 Tempo on straight E85 with no readily apparent ill effect, and I've run various mixtures of E85/regular for about a year- still no effect. Not saying some rubbery components ultimately won't go bad but it looks like it takes a while. The EFI compensates for the BTU differential- except at WOT. I know it won't work on carbureted stuff without re-jetting.

This is interesting to me, and it's the first I've read it. For some reason it just seems that E85 wouldn't work in an engine designed for gasoline.

then again, I've been wrong about tons of stuff before :P

[zpiloto]

http://www.carbibles.com/fuel_engine_bible.html

Scroll down toward the bottom.

[rh77]

Originally Posted by theclencher

You know this how?

As I've mentioned here before, I've run the '92 Tempo on straight E85 with no readily apparent ill effect, and I've run various mixtures of E85/regular for about a year- still no effect. Not saying some rubbery components ultimately won't go bad but it looks like it takes a while. The EFI compensates for the BTU differential- except at WOT. I know it won't work on carbureted stuff without re-jetting.

Well, you've certainly ruined your catalytic converter, and the alcoholic nature of E85 will start to eat away at critical engine components. I bet $10 that your check-engine light is on (?). The O2 sensors are probably fouled, the oil will become more acidic and breakdown sooner. That poor 4-banger is going to blow!

When I rented a car in North Dakota recently, I had to sign a waiver that if I fueled the vehicle with E85, then I would be responsible for the extensive damage to the engine.

Speaking of cats, to answer your question, I'm concerned about emissions and dependence on foreign oil instead of saving the total amount of fluid in the tank. Frankly, I don't look at gas prices - my motivations for saving gas goes farn beyond the almighty dollar. I have to fuel my cars and I pay the price. I usually don't even look at the price or total amount paid unless I print a receipt.

I predict people will see huge hit in FE using E85, become frustrated, and go back to gasoline. In addition, the jury is still out on the energy consumed to plant, grow, harvest, process, transport, store, and dispense Ethanol a mostly-new system. From the processing point onward, the traditional gasoline distribution system won't work because of water attraction. I also understand that NOx is increased 3-5% per gallon. If you start to burn this stuff in bulk, expect respiratory problems like asthma to exponentially increase. The EPA is working to remove this and particulate (soot) from Diesel for this reason. Granted, Ethanol does reduce CO2 emissions, but I'm not convinced that it's the best answer to the question. It might be a piece of a varied amounts solutions, who knows.

RH77

[rh77]

Originally Posted by theclencher

Lotsa good stuff on that link but some of it I disagree with and some things I know to be downright wrong. I think some of his E85 opinions are overly pessimistic.

I have to disagree again. What part of this is opinion? There is scientific data supporting much of what is said. If you're referring to the political comments, then quote it as such. What is wrong, exactly?

RH77

[onegammyleg]

Hi theclencher - ¨I do recall Chris stating that buttery smooth intake tracts are a wonderful thing when in fact state-of-the-art practice holds that some surface roughness in the intake tract promotes better mixture homogeneity.¨

On exhasut ports I polish them to a brilliant shine which reduces carbon build up, which maintains their flow capability for many years.

For inlet ports if its a mulitpoint EFI car we polish the ports.
This is because the fuel is added just at the back of the inlet valve and doesnt have time to fall out of suspension.
On a carby or single port EFI I leave a random paterned surface by using some tough glass paper on a power tool.

Any fuel that wishes to stick to the port wall has a hard time due to lack of surface tension.(grip) and it will get reintroduced into the airstream.

[zpiloto]

Originally Posted by theclencher

Lotsa good stuff on that link but some of it I disagree with and some things I know to be downright wrong. I think some of his E85 opinions are overly pessimistic.

I was only looking at the E85 stuff at the bottom of the page that states a reduction in FE by 25% with only a 10% reduction in GHG. The Wiki article states the same thing.

[rh77]

Originally Posted by theclencher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

1. My converter is not ruined.
2. My check engine light is not, and has not ever been on. I will PM you with the address to remit my $10 to.

Someone will have to verify the data. I say a road-trip to MN! I love it up there. MN and Wisconsin are my favorites. I suppose I could get a crisp new 10-spot for a paid trip

4. Oil may very well be susceptible to greater contamination. Maybe I'll change it sooner than the 1x/year it gets now.

LOL -- how many miles do drive? And where's your Gaslog young man?

5. 18x,xxx miles and 15 years and she runs like new- no noises, no smoking, strong compression, good power. You will have to wait for quite some time before she blows. I think she'll rust out first.

The Tempo must be the 90's answer to the Dodge Dart.

6. I wonder what the rental car agency is going on? Probably nothing more than CYA (Cover Your A**) syndrome.

The agency was actually owned by a Honda dealer in town (first time I got to rent an Accord ), so their service department may be seeing what's happening.

9. Your prediction and .99 cents might get you a cup of coffee. As long as E85 remains proportionally cheaper than regular (FE drop= price diff) and people realize cost/mile hasn't changed, it will work out. If they jack E85 prices, though, they may face a consumer revolt.

My morning coffee costs $4.65 (Triple Grande Almond Mocha) -- 7 years on high octane! I agree with the price theory.
10. That said, I'm not sure E85 is the answer.

I favor the diesel cycle and the use of waste vegetable oil and biofuel.

YES!!!

RH77

[ZugyNA]

Originally Posted by ketel0ne

Are there additives that would offset the e10? I am not a big fan of them on top of regular unleaded but if it was to get back a loss, it may not be so bad.

Can't vouch for most of this:

"You will always get better gas mileage with the straight gas vs. gasahol because the alcohol dilutes the BTU's in the gas. And since an automobile engine is a BTU burner you will lose 5-10% in MPG. Try adding K-1 kerosene to your gas or gasahol. I've added 1 gallon per 10 gallons in my gas to offset the alcohol effect, and it cleans your fuel system at the same time. Try it."


"Think I stumbled across a combo that might help your winter mileage.

3 ounces of acetone
2 1/2 ounces of Xylene
1 ounce of Ethos FR $15.95 qt ..... $15.95 / 16 = $1.00 per 10 G

Ethos FR costs around $.62 per 10 G if bought by the gallon

Add this to every ten gallons of gasoline and try it out. You might have to adjust the acetone to what you were getting your best gas mileage with when you were using acetone. In my case three ounces did it for me.

Just started using this and mileage went to 21.5 on my F150. The best I could get in winter without anything was 19.0. The best in summer so far with acetone alone was 21. Will keep testing and fine tuning this combo and keep you updated but wanted to share with everyone out there."


""We recently proved that Carb Medic from Gunk (and other GUNK
products) can raise mileage when 1 to 3 oz. are used with 2 or 3 oz.
of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline, especially in COLD WEATHER."

*LaPointe"


"I will say that some have added a few drops of #2 heating oil to about 10 gals of gasoline containing alcohol desiring to 'refresh' the deliberate de-powering of said fuel. Use the heating oil sparingly! Keep in mind that #2 oil is not thesame any longer to diesel. Let us know what you find. LaPointe"

"There are of course other additives that improve mileage (which also have had less than a favorable reception by the petroleum industry). Certain octane improvers for example also aid mileage. We recently proved that Carb Medic from Gunk can raise mileage when 3 oz. are used with 2 oz. of acetone per 10 gallons of gasoline, EVEN IN COLD WEATHER. LaPonte"

[JanGeo]

K1 and heating oil have sulfur in them and will wreck havoc with the cat and in cold weather+engine will not burn very well producing a lot of white smoke and can cause dieseling (engine run on) after the key is turned off in non-FI cars.