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View Poll Results: For the Team Challenge, what is a "Clutchless Manual"?
Automatic Transmission 7 50.00%
Manual Transmission 7 50.00%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-25-2007, 08:29 PM   #21
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Rh 77, the best system I have seen was started by one of your favorite car companines back in 1955.

Citroen's Citromatic (Citromatique) was a conventional manual gearbox with clutch controled by the cars high pressure system, with control of shifting done by hand (with a small shifter the size of a pencil) that controlled a spool valve, this controlled fluid flow to the cylinders on the manual gearbox, and a low pressure pump sensed engine speed and would work the slave cylinder. A WONDERFUL system to drive, crisp and concise shifts, and if you had the gas pedal to the floor, the system would fling it back at you.

So you had to shift, let up on the gas, but no clutch pedal.

Here is more on the system:

http://www.citroen.mb.ca/tech/DStech...ion/index.html

Here is how to start the system (with the gear selector, prevents starting in gear, but you could also lock the system for push starts and crank starts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-kcPwVperM

Note how he also sets the ignition before the manual choke.

Neat system, never duplicated, both simple and complex at the same time.
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Old 06-25-2007, 08:39 PM   #22
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Antoine: I am a little late on this one. But I voted ? manual ? last week.... hummm ... don't tell CO ZX2 ... he will kill me !

CO ZX2:

Welcome to Team GasMisers5.

Antoine, you're an honest guy. We will get along just fine. I haven't shot at anybody since last Wednesday . After all, this is the Old West.
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Old 06-25-2007, 08:47 PM   #23
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Citro?n Citromatique

Good to see you back Spule 4

I came across Citro?n's design during my research on the subject. Good link to the video, BTW (it looks like a little arcing from the coil ). Cool car, though -- it's been around for a while - kinda surprised the concept didn't take off sooner.

I'm still waiting for that C4 Diesel-Hybrid...


Perhaps reliability was a concern -- I know BMW had quite the issue with their SMGs when first introduced a few years ago.

RH77
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rh77 View Post
Good to see you back Spule 4

I came across Citroën's design during my research on the subject. Good link to the video, BTW (it looks like a little arcing from the coil ). Cool car, though -- it's been around for a while - kinda surprised the concept didn't take off sooner.

I'm still waiting for that C4 Diesel-Hybrid...


Perhaps reliability was a concern -- I know BMW had quite the issue with their SMGs when first introduced a few years ago.

RH77
Citromatic was a pain when not right. Lurchy car. Forget valet parking.....

It was also a Rube Goldberg way to make an automatic. The Traction Avant was to have a full automatic, several were developed, none worked, more money, Andre went bust, and Michelin moved in for control.....

So, Citroen did the next best thing, and made a manual box fully automatic.

Now, this is not to be confused with the C-Matic that went into the CX and GS/A. These had true torque converters. Citroen also used the BW35 automatic for the last of the non-US D cars and for US SMs.

Another neat car with (I think) electric clutch and manual shift was the NSU Ro80. I think it was an electric clutch as there was a sensor switch on the shifter that would dis-engage the clutch the second your hand hit it. Kind of a pain, and a bit odd when you drove it (I have not driven one in nearly 20 years).

So, with the advances in torque converters and automatic gearbox technology, the Citromatic transmission was never really duplicated in its form, even by Citroen who had all that extra hydrualics in the cars already, so that should tell you something.......

EDIT: The Citroen 2CV cars also had an optional centrifical clutch in the 425cc motored cars.
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Spule 4 View Post
...Another neat car with (I think) electric clutch and manual shift was the NSU Ro80. I think it was an electric clutch as there was a sensor switch on the shifter that would dis-engage the clutch the second your hand hit it....
SAAB used this on their "Saxomat" optioned cars in the early 60's, probably the same device, or built under license. No pedal, an electric switch in the change lever operating a solenoid... Since so much early SAAB was copied from Germany (the first prototypes in 1949 used DKW engines, my V4 engine was built by Ford of Germany, even now the 9'3 is basically a rebadged Opel) it wouldn't surprise me if the two systems were the same.
But the NSU was later so maybe the SAAB was a failure first.
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:26 AM   #26
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Here is a good video of Citromatique starting and shifting, on a uber rare Jubilee none the less!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZk6nHxE2TE
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Old 07-26-2007, 06:06 PM   #27
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