bad mpg

[DoctorM]

Originally Posted by Draigflag

... oil is a non renewable fossil fuel with limited sources ...
.. any oppurtunity to save it should be prioritised.

Americans have always bought into this idea that they need a big engined heavy car for travelling large distances. In Europe, most people need 1 car to do everything, its too expensive to have 2 cars. They need it to be efficient butalso have good performance, and still be capable of transporting the whole family and luggage on big road trips. Now after decades of building to this criteria, we've nailed it, our small cars are just as quick, just as comfy, just as safe (in some cases safer) and much more efficient than the big cars in the US.

The US car manufacturers failed to develop cars, the engines are big, slow and inefficient, outdated in every aspect. Pre recesion, Europe was making twice as many cars as the US, its clear to see why they went broke. But its refreshing to see some Americans now finaly understanding the concept of small turbocharged technology, and the fact that a 5.0 litre to drive 1 guy 6 miles to work is probably excessive!

Oil is renewable, but the renewal cycle is very long, perhaps measured in eons. But we are far from running out. We have more proven reserves today than fifty years ago, and new technology allows us to economically extract oil from tar sands and oil shale. The point here is that dire predictions of running out of oil have proved false.

Yes your European vehicles are mechanically efficient, but they are not cost efficient for the American market. And I wouldn't call most of them comfortable, though you do have extremely expensive luxury models for the very rich and the very few.

I would agree with you on American car brands as being below par. For the most part they only last 50,000 miles before they are junk. Most of the really good, cost effective "American" cars are not made in America, but in Japan for the American market.

I personally like a big low reving engine. I tool along at 70 mph at only 2000 rpm. With a red line at 6000 rpm, there is plenty of reserve power for hauling passengers, freight and towing a big boat - all at the same time. You can't do that with a "buzzy" little super efficient car -- it has no reserve power.

That's just a difference in life style -- dictated largely by fuel costs. Europe is far more expensive than the US (like double) -- mostly due to excessive taxation and regulation. I like Europe to visit, but not to live there. You probably feel just the opposite. Neither of us our wrong -- just different styles.

[Draigflag]

Its true, Americans think European cars are jokes, Europeans think American cars are jokes. But you have to appreciate good engineering too. A 1.0 litre sized engine might be what you refer to as a "buzzy little engine" but Nissan have recently developed an engine this size with 400 BHP. My first car aged 17 had an 850 cc engine, I bet you have motorcycles bigger than that, and yeg it still did over 100 MPH (even though the speedo only went up to 100, the needle would keep going)

These little engines win awards for thier clever designs, Ford's Ecoboost, Renault's 0.9 TCE and Fiats Twinair again 0.9 litre are all good examples of small yet adequate engines.

[DoctorM]

@Draigflag
I'm an engineer, so I appreciate all kinds of technical advancements. Not a lot of that is offered her in the US, though.

By the way, my 27-year-old motorcycle (Honda) is "only" 700cc, which is not considered a large bike here. So you had a bigger engine in your first car -- plus you didn't have to get rained on, or frozen in the winter. At 77,000 miles, and never been a shop for repairs, the bike isn't what it used to be, but it is still a good town-bike. And it gets 50 miles per gallon in town, never quite getting up to top gear.

My neighbor, two houses down from mine, has a new Harley Davidson -- that only get 37 miles per gallon. Even I admit that is unbelievably bad mileage for a motorcycle. Not anything I would buy.

But that's America -- fat bodies, fat motorcycles, and fat cars. Love it or leave it, I guess. Kind of disappointing when you look at it that way.

[agraham52]

one thing no one has touched on is repairs, idk about the rest of you but i cannot afford to own, maintain a newer, forign economical car. couldnt afford repairs or insurance for that matter. what i spend more of on my american truck, i make up for in being able to fix it from bumper to bumper without needing to pay someone. mind you i have a small engine and a 5spd in my truck so dont take me for the redneck kind of person. iv also gone from 14mpg average tank to 20 mpg average tank.

[Draigflag]

Originally Posted by DoctorM

@Draigflag
I'm an engineer, so I appreciate all kinds of technical advancements. Not a lot of that is offered her in the US, though.

By the way, my 27-year-old motorcycle (Honda) is "only" 700cc, which is not considered a large bike here. So you had a bigger engine in your first car -- plus you didn't have to get rained on, or frozen in the winter. At 77,000 miles, and never been a shop for repairs, the bike isn't what it used to be, but it is still a good town-bike. And it gets 50 miles per gallon in town, never quite getting up to top gear.

My neighbor, two houses down from mine, has a new Harley Davidson -- that only get 37 miles per gallon. Even I admit that is unbelievably bad mileage for a motorcycle. Not anything I would buy.

But that's America -- fat bodies, fat motorcycles, and fat cars. Love it or leave it, I guess. Kind of disappointing when you look at it that way.

Thats the annoying thing, when you look at some Indian/Asian countries, they all drive motocycles (weve all seen the videos of an entire family of 6 on one bike!) Bikes are small, light and quick, a formula that should be applied to cars too. If a 50cc is enough power to propel 1 person and get 70 MPG, the you only have to double or tripple the power if you want to carry more people or more stuff. One of my cars which was getting on a bit now, 26 years old had a 700cc engine and just 26 HP and yet it still shifted 4 people and did 72 MPH. Now somewhere along the line, this small light economical formula got lost when the US started making cars, and they instead made these monsters that were pretty low on power for the size, pretty slow because they were so big and heavy, and far from fuel efficient. Unfotunately this formula kind of stuck.

Originally Posted by agraham52

one thing no one has touched on is repairs, idk about the rest of you but i cannot afford to own, maintain a newer, forign economical car. couldnt afford repairs or insurance for that matter. what i spend more of on my american truck, i make up for in being able to fix it from bumper to bumper without needing to pay someone. mind you i have a small engine and a 5spd in my truck so dont take me for the redneck kind of person. iv also gone from 14mpg average tank to 20 mpg average tank.

Im not sure I understand you? Surely a newer car will be more cost effective as it will require less repairs and be more reliable? Newer modern cars, especialy diesels are stupidly cheap to run and low maintainance. The oil change intervals on mine are 24,000 miles and I get almost 800 miles from an 11 gallon tank.

[Jay2TheRescue]

You're getting into the total cost of ownership. Maintenance, repairs, and insurance factor into a vehicle's cost along with fuel and oil. A vehicle that gets worse fuel economy might be more economical than one that gets great fuel economy.

Here in the US, an older, well maintained, reliable full size pickup truck that gets about 18 MPG highway can be had easily for under $5,000. Maintenance, insurance, registration, taxes, and parts are relatively inexpensive. Compare that to a VW Jetta. The Jetta costs more, is more to insure, parts cost more... You have to drive an awful lot to make the Jetta balance out.

[Draigflag]

I guess as with most debates, it comes down to fuel costs. A diesel car has far more pro's than cons in Europe, road tax is lower, insurance is lower, servicing/maintainance intervals are further spread apart (generaly 2 years instead of once a year now) and diesel is $10.33 a gallon as oppose to $9.87 for gas so it pays for itself here. I estimate my current car to save me £2000 a year which is $3300, not a huge amount, but over time it can add up.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Here in the US, diesel fuel is heavily taxed because it is viewed by the Gov't as a fuel primarily used by big trucks and commercial vehicles.

[Draigflag]

But still not as heavily taxed as ours, about 7 of those $10 every gallon goes straight to the Government!

[Jay2TheRescue]

Yeah, that's highway robbery!