230: BS or utter BS?

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by maximilian

Better access to rental vehicles could make pure electric vehicles more practical for many. I started a thread about ideas for improving it a while ago, but it's eluding my search.

This thread?
http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=10378

[GasSavers_maximilian]

That would be the one. Thanks.

I was trying to think of other ways to extend the range of electric vehicles. What if the gasoline engine was sized only for cruising and had a single gear ratio. Whenever you got into a speed where it'd be optimal to run, you cruise using it as a range extender and stop using electric. It'd be electric for everything else and electric would also provide a bit of a boost for hill climbing and passing if needed. Even without a dedicated generator you could still use it to charge the batteries by using the electric motor as a generator, I guess. While having even a simple entire other transmission is annoying, it being single speed should simplify it a lot. I'm skeptical of this system's utility, which, frankly, is why I'm posting it publicly.

[GasSavers_RoadWarrior]

That auxilliary gas engine probably wouldn't sell, due to people being intensely suspicious of a 300cc motor that sounded like an angry hornet during normal operation. (Because it would be putting out it's 15-20HP at 3000RPM throttle 90% open) Would need a lot of sound deadening and isolation....

Hmmm... now if Marvin was a standard, I'd quite like to try sticking a Kohler pusher under his arse end....

[R.I.D.E.]

The Chevy site has some interesting information.

Up to 40 miles range. Emphasis on the "up to" caveat.

No transmission, 154 HP electric motor with battery acceleration on the tested mule of 10 seconds. The real car does not exist today, and the testers could not even use the IC engine.

Engine power (IC) max is 100 HP, not used to charge the battery, just to provide power directly to the motor, so don't expect much performance, after you loose 10% in the generator and another 10% in the motor itself.

Not available before 11-10, if even then. You probably can not buy one for two years.

Expected battery life of 10 years and 150 k, then replacement cost will make the car worth probably less than 20% of the original purchase price, if everything else has not disintegrated by then.

Check the market selling prices of hybrids, at 150 k, for the percentage of original purchase price.

Property taxes will be assessed on the full value. Check you local property taxes, which on a car that expensive would easily pay for my yearly fuel consumption.

Given the choice I would take the Leaf with it's 100 mile rage and 10k or more price advantage.

Adding up the depreciation, cost of operation, taxes and registration fees ($1200 here), and you start to get an idea of the real cost per mile.

I am beating that cost by at least 75%, maybe as much as 90% when you do the simplest cost accounting.

Take my $3300 Echo, put the $30,000 left over in the bank at 4% and you make $1200 a year for fuel. At current prices here that's about 500 gallons of gas. That's 25,000 miles per year worth of fuel, and after 5 years you still have the 33K.

You could buy the Leaf and tow your APU behind it when you needed the extra range.

People, you need to do the math and some real accounting if you want to drive cheap. Most here would never consider a 40k car that you can only drive in a 20 mile (optimistic) radius without recharging.

I have less money (minus the paid by us govt subsidy) in all 3 of the cars we own.

Spend less that $150 per month for gasoline. Compare that to the interest earned on the $40,000 purchase price of the Volt.

A member on CleanMPG was claiming 299 MPG on his lithium battery upgraded Prius, because his daily commute was short enough to use only battery power.

Wonder how long that battery will last, and what it cost for the conversion. I think he is a member here. Maybe he will join the discussion.

To little too late, another GM ploy to get more of my damn money.

regards
gary

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

Up to 40 miles range. Emphasis on the "up to" caveat.

VW says my car gets up to 28mpg, but I get over 40. I would expect it not to be useful to hypermile a car with regenerative braking, but plenty of people hypermile Priii to far beyond their rating. I can't imagine that I'll get less than my 38 mile commute out of a charge, but if I do then I'll use a small amount of gas...no big deal.

Engine power (IC) max is 100 HP, not used to charge the battery, just to provide power directly to the motor, so don't expect much performance, after you loose 10% in the generator and another 10% in the motor itself.

The gas engine turns on when the batteries are down to 30%, and 100hp is plenty for normal driving. There's no reason why it won't dip into the 30% remaining charge for more power on demand. In highway driving it will not need anywhere near 100hp, and in city driving it will regen which will help provide the rare need for more.

Your Echo only has 108hp, ever. Granted, the Volt will weigh a lot more...probably more like a Prius, which has a total of 78 + 67 hp if the gas engine is running at its best RPM.

Check the market selling prices of hybrids, at 150 k, for the percentage of original purchase price.

How does hybrid depreciation compare to non-hybrid depreciation? It's not like my 2002 GMC 4x4 pickup is worth a significant percentage of its original purchase price.

I am beating that cost by at least 75%, maybe as much as 90% when you do the simplest cost accounting.

Take my $3300 Echo, put the $30,000 left over in the bank at 4% and you make $1200 a year for fuel.

Now you're comparing a used car to a new car. A more appropriate comparison would be a new Yaris.

People, you need to do the math and some real accounting if you want to drive cheap. Most here would never consider a 40k car that you can only drive in a 20 mile (optimistic) radius without recharging.

I think 20 miles is pretty pessimistic for any driver on this forum...and once it runs out, it's not like you'll be getting 20mpg. If I can get 40+mpg from a 22-28mpg car, I should be able to get 50mpg out of a 50mpg car.

To little too late, another GM ploy to get more of my damn money.

Eh...I don't think it's your money they're after.

[R.I.D.E.]

Originally Posted by theholycow

VW says my car gets up to 28mpg, but I get over 40. I would expect it not to be useful to hypermile a car with regenerative braking, but plenty of people hypermile Priii to far beyond their rating. I can't imagine that I'll get less than my 38 mile commute out of a charge, but if I do then I'll use a small amount of gas...no big deal.

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You are comparing an electric vehicle to an IC powered vehicle. IC has a sweet spot, electric motors have nothing like the same sweet spot. You have heard me say when they get the car right you will not be able to hypermile that car. The only way to extend the electric range will be to lower your average speed, and the range quoted is not based on any high speed driving, where aero drag requires exponentially more power. __________________________________________________ _____________

The gas engine turns on when the batteries are down to 30%, and 100hp is plenty for normal driving. There's no reason why it won't dip into the 30% remaining charge for more power on demand. In highway driving it will not need anywhere near 100hp, and in city driving it will regen which will help provide the rare need for more.

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If you want to shorten the life of the battery significantly, use the last 30% of the charge. I doubt that will be possible with the manufacturer being fully aware of the consequences and any warranty situation, if they are even in existence to provide you with warranty service.
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Your Echo only has 108hp, ever. Granted, the Volt will weigh a lot more...probably more like a Prius, which has a total of 78 + 67 hp if the gas engine is running at its best RPM.

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My Echo has a transmission to multiply the engine power avaialble to the wheels. The Volt does not. Most of the current knowledge on electric drives concurrs on the fact that to get there with electric drives some form of transmission will be necessary. In my prior post they are even recommending adding capacitors to electric vehicles to extend range. Sorry no capacitor on the Volt.
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How does hybrid depreciation compare to non-hybrid depreciation? It's not like my 2002 GMC 4x4 pickup is worth a significant percentage of its original purchase price.

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Cost per mile is my yardstick. Yours?

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Now you're comparing a used car to a new car. A more appropriate comparison would be a new Yaris.

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How many here just buy new cars? Cost per mile is my yardstick. A friend just bought a 2007 Chrysler Crossfire for $16k, with 17,000 miles. Would you rather pay $40k for it new?
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I think 20 miles is pretty pessimistic for any driver on this forum...and once it runs out, it's not like you'll be getting 20mpg. If I can get 40+mpg from a 22-28mpg car, I should be able to get 50mpg out of a 50mpg car.

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I wouldn't bet the farm on it, but lets assume its true. My 1/10th cost Echo does that right now, not two or more years from now, for less than 1/10th the price.
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Eh...I don't think it's your money they're after.

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They got 50 billion, some of it was mine, and I got nothing.

The get another $7500 per vehicle, and I get nothing.

Damn right it's my money. Maybe they can give me some of the free health care they promised their former employees.
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HC you are a good man, and a smart fellow, who I consider a freind. I will post no more on this thread. All I can say, is to keep your eyes wide open and make sure their claims materialize into facts and a cost effective transportation solution

regards
gary

[GasSavers_RoadWarrior]

I've not looked at the latest specs, but remember that one of the things that irked me about the specs at announcement was that the Volt seemed to offer lower performance and range than an 80s tech retrofitted Chevette or something similar favored for conversions. I've heard of those doing 80 miles on a set of golf cart batteries, and hybrid conversions doing 75-100 mpg. Mother Earth News had a project vehicle in the mid 80s that exceeded the Volts projected performance.... and that was an overweight none too aerodynamic S10.