Electric V's Hybrid

[R.I.D.E.]

If I knew my Mirage was going to depreciate as much as it did, as well as how close the Echo was in MPG potential, I probably would not have bought new. I could not agree more, let someone else rent the depreciation, then pluck it up with 30k miles for less than half the new cost. Saves on insurance and taxes as well.

A $7k leaf would work fine for my parents, even for us locally, but then she wants to go to her two daughters houses which would make on impractical and she has not driven one of my manual trans cars once.

[trollbait]

Originally Posted by gregsfc

As much as those who really like to push for electrification of personal transportation want to minimize the negatives and to fictionally demonize all other technologies in order to make electric cars look better comparatively; I am very skeptical of the promise of any products coming to market to deliver on "said" ratings, longevity, range, performance, etc. Comparing a full electric to a hybrid doesn't impress me, as the concept of a parallel hybrid is one of the least attractive technologies to enter production ever. I mean, as I do try to stay open-minded regarding all auto tech concepts, how does two fuels, two fuel tanks, two power plants, working, and two drives working in parallel, in one car compete with any single system from a cost standpoint. Hurray to Toyota for making this work from a business sense, but mass marketing this concept into many auto segments seems unlikely as anything close to a fuel-saving solution. On the other hand, if serial hybrid systems could ever prove efficient (more efficient than Chevy Volt with the gas generator running), then I'm very interested in that concept.

A quick technical correction first, Toyota hybrids are power-split ones; they have both parallel and series operation. The Volt is also a power-split, though it prefers series operation. The i3 REx is the only pure series hybrid I am aware off. Hyundai, and what Ford is putting into the F150, is a straight parallel hybrid.

Hybrids can be very effective in reducing fuel use. They are a tough sell in the US because our fuel is cheap. That isn't the case in the other major car markets.

We are going to see some degree of hybridization spread to all cars in the future as regulations push better efficiency and cleaner emissions. The 2018 Equinox, Malibu, and F150 already have an auto start/stop system standard across the line up.. Going mild hybrid won't take much more.

My main issue with e cars is the same as it is with all other cordless products, at least as they are marketed in the U.S. The manufacturers and distributors all get away with exaggerating performance and price-to own-and-operate, and do not face near the scrutiny from gov't regulators, the media, and most-importantly, they do not self regulate and do not join together to produce products that are adaptable to all brands in the same classes. Imagine if an owner of a gas-powered car had to drive around looking for a Honda gas pump to fill his/her tank with the same fuel as what a Ford uses, and the industry is doing this to themselves, because they want to compete with each other instead of ICEs. I'm all for the concept of electric cars for the future, but the industry must start to get it together and start giving us realistic performance data that matches the real world.

Plug in cars under go the same EPA testing that ICE cars do, with the same limits of advertising. An electric car's EV range on the window sticker can not exceed what was possible from the the testing and adjusting. Just like fuel economy numbers, there is the your mileage may vary disclaimer.

The AC charging plug and protocol is standardized. This is the one used for level 1 and level 2 charging, and almost everyone uses it. Tesla is the exception, but they include an adapter with their cars. The plug in Europe is different than the one in other markets, but so is the plug to charge your phone.

The different DC charging standards is because of greed and ego, and need need. ChAdeMO from Japan was the first. The company that held its rights was charging high licensing fees at first, and even charging companies to just experiment with it. CHAdeMO, at the time, wasn't fast enough for Tesla, so they developed Supercharger. Because of the fees, and maybe baser reasons, the European and American car companies developed and supported CCS.

To the user, the difference between CHAdeMO and CCS is the plug, and diesel cars face that issue because the nozzles for commercial trucks won't fit. When CCS arrived, the tird party charging networks started installing chargers with both plugs. It adds a couple hundred or so to the cost, but installing the charger already costs $60k to $100k. They are also free to add a Supercharger plug if they wanted too.

The faster rates needed for solid state batteries and capacitors will likely be built upon those standards. There issues beyond the plug shape that need to be addressed. First is in supplying power fast enough to the charger for those 5min or less rates. Next is in making a manageable cable for the plug. It will be thick and heavy if just increasing the gauge for the power.

I can give many examples of the disparity between the two power sources and how ICEs are required to over promise while e everything under promises and disappoints; especially cordless. I love electric motors and would love not to own or use any ICE equipment if I could get value and performance and be told the truth. I tried a 21" corded electric push mower. Unlike cordless stuff, at least the corded equipment lists amps instead of volts, but when a 13 amp mower draws only 8 amps and when the 21" mower is actually the deck size and not the blade size (MTD lost a law suit over a slight hp rating exaggeration and no gas mower could ever get away with using deck size instead of blade size as a deception). I've got Black and Decker weed trimmer and dealt dill. Same company, same amp-hr batteries, but the batteries are not compatible. Zero motorcycles claim 100 mile highway range, but can't even go a fraction of that distance in an FE contest even streamlined.

So maybe the cars are better, but I can't risk $30K to find out.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by luv2spd

I recommended a Black & Decker cordless electric lawn mower to my brother years ago. I usually don't give out bad advise, but that was one of them. The three batteries that came with the machine were not usable after two years and Black & Decker changed their batteries; so the lawn mower with the batteries were junk after two years. F... Black & Decker for not supporting their products. I told my brother that if the batteries go in a few years, just replace them with better ones. How wrong I was. He bought a double blade Honda lawn mower (with catalytic converter) last year with the cheating diesel money he got from Volkswagen; he's never been happier.

If you can solder, you can refurbish the battery. Just crack open the case and replace the cells, which are generic, off the shelf parts. You can't switch between Li-ion and NiMH, because of the different voltages and charging needs though.

I rode a Zero electric bike a few years ago, it was nice; but not $15,000 nice; more like $5,000 nice. All the electric bike manufacturers went belly up a few years ago.

Some are still around.

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

A Nissan Leaf coming off a 3 year lease depreciates about $21k, not including taxes, registration, cost of fuel (electricity), insurance and maintenance (at least a set of tires).

Incentives are skewing those numbers. Between the federal and state ones, a new Leaf will get $10k or more off in California and Colorado. That depresses the used car prices.

Then the batteries have been steadily improving in ability and cost. Which hurts the previous models' value. Then early Leafs had batteries suspectable to heat degradation.

If you want to pick up a used BEV to try out, it is a buyers market now.

[Draigflag]

I'm currently watching an EV on eBay, fairly local to me within 60 miles (most are several hundred miles away in places like London) so watch this space

[peteo48]

I am somebody who has hovered round the EV scene for nearly a year now. As a low mileage driver I had come to the conclusion that they made sense as a used buy. I was happy to hire an ICE car for longer trips. Indeed I made a rough note each day as to how many times even a 24 kwh Nissan Leaf might struggle and I got right through to late September. (I'd had a long trip down to Cornwall for a week but I'd have hired an ICE for that). Then 2 trips have come up which would have been an absolute nightmare in even a 30kwh Leaf because of gaps in the charging infrastructure. For me, at any rate, as a one car family, hybrids seem a more logical way to go until gaps in the charging infrastructure are filled in. If I had 2 cars? Well one would be an EV no question.

[luv2spd]

Paul, which EV are you considering? I saw a Mitsubishi iMev on the highway the other day, it was one of those "I have no idea what kind of car this is" moments when I passed it. It was going 70mph and was in front of me for like 10 miles on the highway, I never see EVs on the highway here.

[JockoT]

The Mitsubishi iMev is a full EV, with 62 mile EPA range, since replaced by the PHEV. My intention is to get a full EV (Leaf, ZOE or e-Golf), but hang on to my Jazz (no point in scrapping it) for trips I need the extended mileage (3 or 4 a year).

[Draigflag]

Originally Posted by luv2spd

Paul, which EV are you considering? I saw a Mitsubishi iMev on the highway the other day, it was one of those "I have no idea what kind of car this is" moments when I passed it. It was going 70mph and was in front of me for like 10 miles on the highway, I never see EVs on the highway here.

Yea that started life as a Kei car in Japan, with the 660cc rear mounted turbo, which was sold in small numbers in the UK. The EV version is also available as a Peugeot and a Citroën, although its tiny real world range makes it a bit useless, and I'm not sure where they got the batteries from, but I've heard they can be problematic.

I was watching a twizy with 7k on the clock, the battery rental is about £40 a month, but for more or less the same price, you can get a Zoe with 38k on the clock. Owner was asking £3900, I think a Zoe is a better buy with its extra comfort, practicality, safety etc etc.

[JockoT]

Renault ZOE 22kW battery rental starts at £49 for <4500 miles per annum and goes up to £89 for a maximum mileage of 10,500. The 40kW costs £10 a month more, and for £110 you can use car for unlimited mileage.
Twizy starts at £45 for <4500 miles for a 3 year contract and £55 for a 1 year contract.
Puts me off completely.

[Draigflag]

Why does it put you off? The whole comparison took everything into account including battery rental, it's still cheaper than a hybrid, maybe not a small diesel. I spend around £120 a month on fuel, for £10 a month less, I could do as many miles as I want on the unlimited tarif.

[JockoT]

You have also to factor in the cost of the electricity you use (unless you can charge the vehicle from self generated solar energy).
I do 10,000 miles a year and spend £75/month (average ) on petrol. That would cost me £89/ month for lease of a 22kW battery. Add to that £26/month for electricity (figures for a 30kW Leaf from https://pod-point.com/landing-pages/...g-electric-car ) and I would be £40/month worse off.