Crazy hybrid car project: help decide which car to convert

[tom_eberhard]

Hi,
I'm going to convert an old car into a hybrid-electric car and I'm running
a little survey to figure out which car to convert. The survey is here:

http://www.GreenPlanetGarage.com/CarSurvey

There's a couple of general questions and 24 cars in the survey. I'm basically
just asking how likely you are to drive one if it was converted. Cool pictures of cool cars.

I'm planning on using a motorcycle engine, if anyone has any advice on
which engines to use/avoid that'd be great too. I'm thinking either a Honda
or Yamaha motor would work...

Tom.
PS: the CRX project is on hold, it's a little too rusty.

[GasSavers_Erik]

I would go with a 2 cylinder water cooled motor like out of an old 1978-198?Honda CX500 or CX650 (some of these were turbocharged). That way you could load it at low speeds without overheating it in a stuffy engine compartment (where an air cooled motor might overheat). These motors also have a decent amount of low rpm torque- or at least more than most of the 4 cylinder motorcycles I've driven. This motor has a clutch pack that is easy to get to and replace (its a transverse mounted motor with a shaft output).

The biggest problem will be getting an economy carb or fitting fuel injection. Most motorcycle carbs are set up for power, not economy.

Edit- yes- whoops- the engine is longitudinally mounted!

[tom_eberhard]

Thanks for the input Erik. I checked out the wikipedia entry on the bikes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CX500
And it says they'll develop up to 50HP, how much HP do you typically need at 60mph? I had a chart of speed vs HP somewhere but can't find it right now...
(for a "typical" car, whatever that is. I realize tires and aerodynamics will make that number somewhat meaningless, I just need a ballpark figure.)

[omgwtfbyobbq]

~20hp.

[The Toecutter]

For building a plug-in hybrid, I'd use a 156-192V pack of Exide Orbital AGMs, Zilla 1k controller(or 2k for more power), WarP 9" motor providing all the power to the wheels, PFC charger with Rudman regulators on the batteries, VW Rabbit engine modified to run the car on B100 that can recharge the pack as the car is driving, and a 5 gallon tank or so. If you get 40+ mpg, 5 gallon tank is all you need.

In most small, aerodynamic cars like a Karmen Ghia or CRX, you'd have about 25-30 miles of all-electric range at 60 mph with a 156V pack of Orbitals(and with a 192V pack, about 35-40 miles all EV range at that speed), ~160 peak horsepower on tap from motor with Zilla 1k(more power with 2k), ~220 lb-ft of peak torque at 0 rpm with Zilla 1k(more torque with 2k), and the diesel engine could be switched on for when the battery runs low that could give exceptional economy, well over 50 mpg. A 2,500 lb car with this battery, motor, and controller configuration would easily do 0-60 mph < 7 seconds and top 120 mph if it's rear wheel drive. If it's front wheel drive, it will be clawing for traction unable to get out of its own way.

The key in the success of this is to use an aerodynamic, lightweight chassis. All those Jeeps and SUVs in your survey would be lucky to get 10 miles range at 60 mph on a 156V pack of Exide Orbitals, and the hotrods and musclecars wouldn't fare too well either unless they had extensive aerodynamic modifications or a significantly larger battery pack.

For series hybrid plug in vehicles, the best cars pictured in that survey starting with the best first would be the Karmen Ghia, Porsche 356, and the Shelby Daytona Replica(you list it as a '68 Ford GT. It's the most aerodynamic, but has weight going against it). The VW Beetle might fare ok due to low weight, but its aerodynamics are crap.

The Jeeps, hotrods, and musclecars would not make good plug-in hybrids unless you can score some advanced batteries for cheap, but would probably make much better series or series-parallel hybrids.

[cfg83]

Toecutter -

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

...

For series hybrid plug in vehicles, the best cars pictured in that survey starting with the best first would be the Karmen Ghia, Porsche 356, and the Shelby Daytona Replica(you list it as a '68 Ford GT. It's the most aerodynamic, but has weight going against it). The VW Beetle might fare ok due to low weight, but its aerodynamics are crap.

....

Couldn't the bug body be removed down to the rolling chassis? Then you could put a kit car body on it :



Here's a gorgeous kit car body that can use a VW chassis :
http://www.kitcar.com/dio/chassis.html



And here's an unfinished project missing the VW engine (don't need it!) :
http://www.kitcars.com/Classifieds/A...sified_id=9174

for sale fierro 600 kit car
this is a very rare fierro 600 kit car only 13 made. fiberglass body is mounted on a vw pan.to complete it needs vw motor, seats and interior, wheels tires, paint ect.
Price: $1,800.00

CarloSW2

[tom_eberhard]

The reason for the survey is because I want to sell this once it's built.
And I procrastinate a lot, so maybe I was just avoiding doing the actual
work. "Gee, let me write a survey first..."

The thing with the Zilla 2K and the WarP 9" is that it adds up to about
$4,000 and at that price I'd rather spend an extra $1,000 and use
an AC motor from Solectria (now azure dynamics) which gives me regen.

I do like the 220lb-ft at 0rpm.

(Thanks for the Shelby Daytona replica correction. Not sure if I
can change it in the database at this point...)

Advanced batteries for cheap: Sometimes, you just have to spend
the money on things because that's what they cost. Cheaper is
better of course. Anyone know where I can get advanced batteries
for cheap? (Like anyone on this board would let that secret out!)

Tom.

[The Toecutter]

Couldn't the bug body be removed down to the rolling chassis? Then you could put a kit car body on it :

Yes. But your average person doesn't seem to care for kit cars too much. That would be an extremely niche market.

Kitcars can have excellent aerodynamics and low weight, making them ideal for an efficient car. But the kitcars you posted, except for the Fierro 600, probably wouldn't give good plug-in range due to poor aerodynamics(at least they appear to have poor aerodynamics).

Good kit cars that appear to have relatively low drag are Porsche Speedster replicas, Porsche Spyder replicas, Manta Montage, Aztec series, Kelmark GT, Colani GT, Avenger/Valkyrie, Jamaican, Laser 917, Amante GT, Avante, Kaylor Invader GT5, Bradley GT, ect. But please understand that none of them have been wind tunnel tested. Just avoid anything with a lot of open roods or open windows or anything buggy-like and you should be fine; pay close attention to frontal area.

***edit***

The thing with the Zilla 2K and the WarP 9" is that it adds up to about
$4,000 and at that price I'd rather spend an extra $1,000 and use
an AC motor from Solectria (now azure dynamics) which gives me regen.

I do like the 220lb-ft at 0rpm.

The ~50 hp Solectria AC system would be ideal for a non-plug in series-parallel or parallel hybrid, where both gas engine and electric drive can provide power to the wheels. A VW Rabbit diesel plus Solectria system would give close to 100 horsepower, which is enough for 0-60 mph in ~10 seconds in a small 2,000 pound car. For a car using the electric motor as its only direct source of propulsion in a series hybrid, it wouldn't supply enough power for average people to want to buy it unless you upped the power rating a lot.

Doing a parallel or series-parallel hybrid would be a lot more difficult than a straight up series hybrid. You'll probably have to source planetary gearing systems from Prii if you want both electric and gas to provide power directly to the wheels.

Advanced batteries for cheap: Sometimes, you just have to spend
the money on things because that's what they cost. Cheaper is
better of course.

A real shame about the whole Chevron-Texaco and NiMH affair, eh?

Anyone know where I can get advanced batteries
for cheap?

One of the legal avenues to pursue would be government auctions. You can often find used NiCds for cheap. The major downside is that you don't always know what you're getting and you usually won't be able to get a refund. Sometimes the batteries may be worn out. A member of the EV list a few years back scored a few thousand BB600 NiCds for a few hundred bucks in total.

You can also dramatically lower the price of advanced batteries by buying in bulk. Thundersky and others have cut their prices down for groups of individuals buying in bulk.

I know how you could illegally obtain them for cheap, but that's probably not the direction you wish to head as the odds wouldn't be in your favor.