Drawback of hypermilling

[vectorg]

Originally Posted by bobc455

And yes, in theory if someone slams into the back of your car when you are going 20 MPH below the flow of traffic, it IS their fault. But the reality of the situation is that the accident was caused by the overly-slow driver.-BC

That's the part that I disagree with. A person driving right around the legal maximum speed-limit is not an overly-slow driver. No matter what the pervasive traffic flow is. An accident in this situation is caused by the speeding, law-breaking drivers.

Every fatal traffic accident is the result of someone being in a hurry. Every one. If people drove at 2mph, there would be no fatal accidents. If everyone planned their time to leave the house a few minutes earlier, there might not be 5,000 teenage deaths on the US roads each year. Who cares about friggen 9/11 or Iraq deaths. Look at our roads. The real killers are there, with 4000 lb weapons.

Just today another youngster killed himself due to bullying at school. As they get older, the bullies go from school to the road, and try to pull their big-truck, speeding, lurching, tailgating stuff on me, but they can't bully me like they did back in school. I'll stand up for the bullied to the end.

Sorry for the rant, because I know you are a good driver. There just aren't any sites I can talk about driving like this one. I've been to left-lane-dicks to see why these people feel the way they do.

They say, "Follow the rules and move to the right lane so that I can drive at 20 over in the left lane." They feel it's their "Right" to break the law, and it's my "duty" to follow the "Keep right" signs. Funny thing is that the fastest drivers quickly move over into the right lane for real speed. Just drive on I-5 and you'll see what I mean.

There is incredible peer pressure to drive fast on the road, and it kills so many each year.

[theholycow]

I'll throw my opnion in...vectorg is right about the concepts, but I disagree about the reality. I side with the others, that when the feces hits the rotating multi-bladed air circulation device, the one who was not driving predictably (aka going with the flow of traffic) is the one person who could have prevented the collision. Asking one person to avoid a collision is far more realistic and effective than asking 60 million.

However, it is very wrong for everyone to be expected to break the law by default. It's wrong to ask people to do it. It's wrong for everyone to bully others into doing it. It's not just conceptually wrong; it's not just about feel-good hippie stuff or making the roads safer by slowing everyone - you have to pay to play, and risk is part of the driving game. There's an issue that nobody seems to notice which is just accepted as normal because everybody has grown up with it: By breaking the law as our default behavior, we willingly put ourselves under law enforcement's thumb.

They can pull anyone at any time, and they can pretty much make up an excuse to search anyone at any time (even destructive searches, and they don't have to pay for repairs afterwards). Luckily they tend to exercise pretty decent control of that for anyone who blends in well; OTOH, certain groups get hassled a lot. Young men (of any race) get no mercy from the system and no mercy from the cops - doubly so if they're driving anything other than a stock tan Toyota Camry.

This isn't only an issue of freedom and liberty. That's the biggest worry, but still, even for the targeted groups, the cops and the system exercise enough self-control to avoid taking it too far with regards to freedom and liberty. The other way that they abuse the people through this tool is economically. Speeding tickets cost a lot of money, but it doesn't stop there. The insurance industry makes HUGE amounts of money when good drivers get tickets.

So, why do we all tolerate the speed limits not being obeyed by the people? Are speed limits not set by the government? Is our government not a government by the people, for the people, representing the people? I think I know why: The people don't speak. MADD speaks. The insurance industry speaks. The elderly speak. These are the people with the understanding of the system who know how to speak, the motivation to speak, and the time to speak. The young men don't even know that they can speak, nor is their word worth much, as it gets summarily dismissed by the general public as the rantings of a hyper kid. The businessmen easily just pay the money and don't waste their time. The housewives get mercy from the system. The people who are targeted don't speak, the people who aren't targeted don't speak, the majority don't speak...only the special interests speak.

It is wrong for the laws not to represent the interests of the overwhelming majority in a situation like this. Go ahead and go for a drive. Spend ten minutes at the speed limit counting speeders, then spend ten minutes at prevailing speed counting drivers obeying the speed limit...

[hi tech hillbilly]

i do the speed limit everywhere i go(unless there is no traffic, in which case i go slower), and i find myself cussing people behind me "quit pulling my draft a_ _hole, just pass me already!!!". on 95 to and from vegas everyday, i even have loaded rigs pass me when im doing the limit (70).

[vectorg]

Originally Posted by hi tech hillbilly

...just pass me already!!!"

Yes, exactly. Just go around me.

I have no problem with that. Go around. In my town, people will cross a double-yellow line to go around me if I drive at the max-speed-limit. Woop-dee-do. Go for it.

To theholycow:

I know the reality of the road, but I don't have to abandon my belief in the laws of my Country. When the law changes, so will I. When pot is legalized, maybe even I will smoke some... but until that time I will fight for our laws as they are written and enforced.

If you come up to my bumper, you better have a Gas-Savers sticker on the front of your car or I'll let off the gas until you go around. You can ram me, but you'll be the first in 35 years, and I'll get to know you in court. We can have lunch after the settlement and post our experience here.

[theholycow]

I agree about the laws, but my point about the reality of the road isn't about people who are impatient and purposely ram you...they're not likely to injure you with a planned straight-on ram. It's the people whose attention wanes for a second and that's the second that they come upon JacobAziza going 20mph lower than the speed limit. They're driving at the prevailing speed, maybe 15mph over; at 80mph they swerve and catch the corner of your car at a 35mph delta, spin you out, your car flips over, and you have a permanent injury (or death) that no court can fix, which could have been pragmatically avoided by going closer to prevailing speed.

Anyway, I had a much bigger and more important point than a physics lesson, and it fits your philosophy well. My main point was that most people want the law changed, but never do anything about it. On other forums, I see people complaining that they were caught speeding, or caught with illegal tint, or whatever...I never see them complaining that the law is wrong, just that they got caught. They feel entitled to break the law more than they feel entitled to fair laws and that isn't right. They complain to a forum but they never complain to their legislators and that isn't right either.

[R.I.D.E.]

In my area of eastern Virginia we have many options as to the roads we travel, which does not apply to others.

In my last two trips to Va Tech I drove the same road I travelled 42 years ago when there were no interstates. I averaged about 58 MPH, traffic was very light and there was always at least two lanes so people could pass easily without aggravation. Also very few trucks.

I got 70.2 MPG one one trip and 69 on the other, compared to 60 or less at 65 MPH averages. On one trip in very bad weather my average dropped to 53 MPG.

Sure it cost me some time, but I still managed to drive close to 600 miles in less than 12 hours, and the stress levels could not compare.

regards
gary

[1993CivicVX]

I couldn't bother reading this entire thread, so if my two cents have already been offered I apologize. Maybe a forum etiquette innovation could be people that are frequenting a thread can sum up what's been covered on every page!

About going too slow. If everyone treated the speed limit like a maximum, then going 20mph under may be okay. For example, if the speed limit is 75 and everyone is doing between 60 and 70 with only a very few people flirting with going over the max speed of 75, then going 55 might be less objectional. But since 55 is such an 'outlier' to the other speeds being driven in a 75mph zone (70-85mph+) it sticks out to the cop that something is unusual regarding your driving behavior. Driving too slow is a common sign of drunk driving. It's also worth noting that the number one accident causing danger on highways is driving at speeds that are either much faster or much slower than the rest of traffic.

Personal experience: I had extra time to get to the train station so I took the opportunity to save gas (this was MANY years ago before I knew about hypermiling, but I did have an interest in getting good mpg) I was driving 39 in a 55. In addition, I was using the whole lane and no one was behind me. American roads are very wide. So I was hugging the white line, then hugging the yellow line. I figured I wouldn't get harassed for this since I was technically not breaking any laws. I was doing it just for fun, since I was driving so slow and driving slow is boring. Well, a police cruiser saw my driving behavior and didn't think it so funny. He thought for SURE I was a DUI. Pulled me over, started asking me various questions. I explained that I was saving gas.. had time to burn to get to the train, and was using the whole lane without breaking any laws. My friend was with me and also explained that I like to save gas. The police was eventually satisfied with our story and didn't test me for alcohol. (I wasn't asked to get out of the car) and just told me to drive normal and keep up with traffic.

So in a way my story is similar to yours OP. I didn't technically break any laws: I wasn't speeding, I was only 15mph shy of the speed limit (most 55mph zones have a minimum of 40 for which flashers should come on--so I guess I was 1mph too slow--but people go 10mph too fast all the time without a ticket...) and I was staying within the lines... and yet my driving was suspicious and unconventional.

But if you were to argue that they should make those 40mph flasher signs say 50mph (which really they should), doing so would register on some level as an admission that people regularly on average drive 10mph over the speed limit. But you'd never win such an argument with a cop, unless he was good humored and affable.

[1993CivicVX]

Originally Posted by vectorg

[snip]

Every fatal traffic accident is the result of someone being in a hurry. Every one. If people drove at 2mph, there would be no fatal accidents. If everyone planned their time to leave the house a few minutes earlier, there might not be 5,000 teenage deaths on the US roads each year. Who cares about friggen 9/11 or Iraq deaths. Look at our roads. The real killers are there, with 4000 lb weapons.

[snip]

They say, "Follow the rules and move to the right lane so that I can drive at 20 over in the left lane." They feel it's their "Right" to break the law, and it's my "duty" to follow the "Keep right" signs. Funny thing is that the fastest drivers quickly move over into the right lane for real speed. Just drive on I-5 and you'll see what I mean.

The first point is a really is a good point. In the news there was a report of a 2 year old being run over by a little kiddy roller coaster. Then on the news page there was a poll: "do you think amusement parks are safe?" Nearly half said no, less said yes and a small remainder said 'don't know'.

If the media covered every lethal car accident, maybe people would develop a balanced perspective on what is safe in this world and what is not.

The second point I disagree with. I don't hypermile all the time. And I don't have a stickler's respect for the rules of the road; because I feel they are made for the lowest common denominator: ie, stupid people and people trying to make a buck off of lawsuits. Follow the rules of the road, but also apply common sense, after all, many rules are put in place because people do stupid things and don't apply intelligence, attention and common sense while driving. People who stay in the left at the speed limit and think that is okay: this may be the number one thing that all drivers do that makes the steam come out of my ears the most!! Even more so than cars pulling out in front of me making me hit the brakes or people not using their turn signals.

On the highway, if you are not conforming to the 'fast lane' speed, whatever that speed is, then you should keep to the right. Staying in the left lane to police the highway and citing the adherence to a technicality of the speed limit probably causes more danger than the danger you are trying to prevent by inciting road rage which is the most dangerous form of driving there is after drunk driving (even worse than multitasking.)

But I wouldn't disagree with you that being in a rush/aggressive driving is probably a major reason for fatality on the roadways, that if everyone had plenty of time to get to where they needed to go and weren't stressed out or impatient, accidents would go down. And you're absolutely right about teenagers and speeding!

EDIT: Should you always drive slower than other traffic?
A. Yes, it is a good defensive driving technique.
B. No, you can block traffic when you drive too slowly.
C. Yes, it is always safer than driving faster than other traffic.

[kstruve]

This isn't exactly right on the topic of this thread, but it is related in that it has to do with the reactions of other drivers to our hypermiling. I currently live in the Pheonix area and from what I've seen, the locals aren't too interested in such things as fuel efficiency. Certainly not when compared to where I'm from, Boulder, Colorado, where it seems every 5th car you see is a Prius. There is a preponderance of huge pickups around here, all driving as fast as they can, racing each other to the next red light.

So it goes without saying that my driving style irritates a lot of people. I had thought, at one point, about getting a window sticker that tells people I'm hypermiling and to kindly pass, but the more time I spend here, the more I think that such a sticker would bring me the wrong kind of attention. A window sticker on a truck I saw the other day properly summarizes the prevailing sentiment:



Now, this is a Photoshop reproduction of a truck I saw, not an actual photo. But this is as close as I could get to replicating the window sticker and the kind of truck that passed me.

[FrugalFloyd]

I just completed a 35 day, 7238 mile cross-country trip in my Scion xB, averaging 45 mph most days, staying on back roads most of the time. I only had one police car (on the Navajo or Hopi reservation in Arizona) follow me for a while. I got 44.7 mpg overall. Coming back to the Bay Area from Gallup NM, I averaged 51.5 mpg over 1213 miles!

My worst mileage was in the SE states, where they use E10 fuel, I had to run the AC, and my wife and two grandkids and their luggage joined me. I'd say the biggest hazard to me was inattentive dimbulbs who raced up behind me without realizing how slow I was going. Their biggest hazard was doing the conga <1 second behind the guy in front of them, all passing me or the slow trucks. I was constantly seeing those chain reaction accidents-in-waiting in the left lane.