The New CRX (2011 CRZ)

[Wyldesoul]

The hybrid aspect gives the CR-Z a much better city mpg, and once more that is where it shines. The auto is the one that defeats the CR-Z, and then only the manual, because the auto CR-Z defeats the auto fiesta soundly in MPG, especially city.

Yes, you can get MUCH sportier cars than the CR-Z that only get marginally less MPG then the CR-Z, and with a much lower price tag, etc...

But the CR-Z is doing it's job very well.

It wasn't designed as a car to be a the new high performing subcompact, and it wasn't designed as a high MPG hybrid.




The CR-Z exists for one purpose:

To show that Hybrids can be sporty.

[pgfpro]

[HTML]The CR-Z exists for one purpose:
To show that Hybrids can be sporty.[/HTML]
I think this is what Honda was thinking with this car.



I know for fact that if Honda wanted to make a killer FE/Sports car that would be a non-Hybrid they could. Its just not in the marketing plan right now. Plus the average consumer would end up killing themselves in it.

The CR-Z sounds like a future tuner car so I guess we will have to wait and see if they can make it extremely fast while not sacrificing FE.

[VetteOwner]

Originally Posted by theholycow

If ESC is the only thing stopping you from looking at newer cars, it's easy enough to disable. Also, you don't need to go so far back to mid-90s; 2008 was when the law first started taking effect, before that there were plenty of cars sold without it.

all the safety BS stuff is only a very small part of why new cars suck (after all they ALL can be disabled)

i stopped looking when they got rid of steel bumpers and they all started to look like silver electric razors that cross bred with easter eggs and sound like their powered by beehives and gerbils... cars have absolutely NO character nowadays...look back 30+ years and you can see major differences between auto manufacturers styles.

so yes i need to go back 20 years at least back when cars had some charachter


lol the comments on that site sheesh... some people need to get off hondas nuts haha i bet $1000 every one of em has the latest ipod and all accessories

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by VetteOwner

...i bet $1000 every one of em has the latest ipod and all accessories

i know we're OT here, but it is worth noting that for all of our safety tech, consumers continue to find ways to hurt themselves...texting while driving, ipod (headphones) on while walking and driving--many pedestrians are less aware of their surroundings, like drivers.

besides, we are disconnecting ourselves from face to face contact. wounded duck say "tech not all good!"

[keloyd]

...sorta.

The Japanese highway fuel economy test is more like a constant 60-65 mph with the cruise on and is more optimistic than the US EPA Hwy numbers. The Japanese report 59 mpg(US) for the CVT and 53 for the 6 spd manual on the highway. European numbers are similar.

It still is a shame this car is so compromised. My '97 Jetta was the same weight, but I hope things are not as bad as they appear.

I've also read, but cannot find a citation, that the US test does not allow switching to "econ" mode. Wouldn't you prefer a peppy 30 mpg some days and a pokey 50 mpg other days when it was the right time and place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CR-Z#Fuel_economy

[Wyldesoul]

I guess then it is probably more appropriate to compare it to the Civix HX rather than the Civic VX (Same design goal, but the HX is less radical due to stricter emissions).

My point being, the fiesta SFE is a pure fuel economy based machine. I've seen definite differences in aerodynamic tweaks (grill block, underpan, ect). However, it also posts even higher city mpg than the auto, so it is definitely tuned different, and drivability had to have been sacrificed a bit.

How do I know drivability has been sacrificed? If it was just a little bit of tuning tweaks that had no effect on drivability, then they would have done it to the auto model anyway, and would have had no need for an SFE package.

But this whole digression doesn't take away from the fact that there is no car with any sportyness that can match the CR-Z in MPG. Highway? One or two can do so, but when it comes to City, the CR-Z stomps every one of them.

The CR-Z is still the most efficient sporty car on the market, Ford Fiesta even being counted!

[Wyldesoul]

How in the world could you consider 2600 lbs to be heavy for a modern car?

A "pig" at 2600 lbs?

I guess the fiesta is also a lardo at a barely lighter 2490 lbs, or the new insight is a fatty at 2700 lbs, or heck, the fit at 2550 lbs.

2600 lbs is the lightest Civic you can buy today.

You have a strange concept of weight in a modern car.

And since when is 36mpg CITY considered bad for MPG? Not to mention 38mpg highway.


I still stand by my statement that the CR-Z is a very efficient sporty car. And in all honesty, if there are only 2 to 4 other cars with a sporty feel that even come close to the MPG of a CR-Z, then it still stands as being a very efficient sporty car.

And as of yet, you have yet to list a sporty car that even touches its city mpg, let alone its combined.



There is also the fact that it is equal to the performance of the old CRX Si, in basically every aspect, and completely trashes the old CRX Si for MPG. Heck, it even trashes the CRX base for MPG in all aspects.


Why is a car that performs identically to the old CRX not considered sporty?

Please, answer me that.

[Wyldesoul]

Wait, what? You do realize that it both meets modern crash regulations, which the 90's civic doesn't. That and it is a hybrid, and I'm sorry, but hybrids have heavy battery packs. It's just a fact of it being a hybrid.


Okay, what about the fact that it does the 100 foot slalom faster than the old CRX?

So.. A 2600 lb (manual transmission) CR-V is 1000lbs too heavy? The only 1600 lb new car legal to sell in the USA is the Smart Fortwo. And that is as sporty as a Geo Metro.

Heck, at a mere 2600 lbs, the CR-Z is definitely one of the lightest sporty cars for sale in America, if not the lightest. The 2010 civic Si is 2900lbs curb. The Hyundai Genesis is 3200 lbs curb, The Scion TC is 2900 lbs curb as well.

Standard for nowadays is 3000 or so lbs being a "light" sporty car.

You have done absolutely nothing to validly dispute the fact that the CR-Z is the highest MPG sporty car on the market. And it definitely IS a sporty car, there is no denying that. Not a high performance car, a sporty car. There is a big difference.

As I have said before, it has one job, and it does that job very well.

The CR-Z shows that hybrids can be sporty.

[theholycow]

It is a combination of ever increasing safety and emissions regulations, expectations from reviewers, expectations from consumers of durability/longevity, competition for horsepower, on-road competition for crash safety against SUVs, feature creep, and lack of any reason to keep it light.

There simply is no compelling reason to make cars light, and plenty to make them heavy. If there was a compelling reason to make them light, they'd compulsively make them light.

Just remember, the '11 CR-Z has an MSRP of around $23K, a '91 CRX-Si has an MSRP of $11,000, the '95 Civic LX has an MSRP of $13,410, and the Ford '11 Fiesta S Sedan has an MSRP of $13,320. If you look at how a vehicle that is 15 years newer has about the same MSRP as one from 15 years ago, you should realize it's either an incredible value or the one from 15 years ago is incredibly overpriced.

You really like comparing apples to fountains, don't you?

Without even comparing the cars themselves, here's a few things that can immediately be said about the 2011 Fiesta vs. the 1995 Civic:
1. No Honda tax
2. Ford needs to keep their prices low right now
3. In 1995 the Civic had a good name. In 2011 the Fiesta is unknown to the general public.
4. American manufacturers have a bad reputation for small cars while the opposite can be said of Honda.

IMO, the 1995 Civic was indeed overpriced and the 2011 Fiesta is indeed a great deal. There's almost no cheaper vehicles at all now.

You keep spouting off about how the CR-Z is to prove that Hybrids can be "sporty"... Who cares?! I'm not going to spend twice as much money for a vehicle just to drive a vehicle with a useless title such as that

Nobody's trying to sell you one...just looking at the effect it might have on the market.

Who cares? The general public cares! They buy Prii like hotcakes, but that leaves a whole market on the table - people who want to drive something that looks more aggressive and sporty by the generally accepted current standard, but still want to be able to tell their friends that they're driving a hybrid. The CRZ delivers that in spades.

[trollbait]

It may not meet some people's definition of sporty, but the Lexus LS600h has a 0 to 60 of 6 sec and pulls .82g. It is also rated 20/22 city/highway. Now the Accord Hybrid gets 24/32, does 0 to 60 in 6.7, and pull .78g.

The Accord is important to this discussion because, for 2005 to 2007, it was Honda's flagship car. They built it to prove that hybrid doesn't mean underpowered and no fun to drive, and it proved that point. But there is a reason it was the flagship up until 2007, they don't make them anymore.

The CR-Z feels like the Accord to me. It may be a great car, but there won't be a market for it. The Accord at least had a real point to make. At its introduction, there were only 3 another hybrid cars on the market. The Insight, Civic, and Prius. None of which had sex appeal at the time. The CR-Z can be called an affordable sporty hybrid, but that Lexus has been available since 2008. If people still think a hybrid has no pep or can't be sporty, they're simply not paying attention.