Tests

[shatto]

Saturday, I left home at 0345 to deliver the boxes to the people conducting the testing at Lathrop High School, some sixty miles away. At 0530 my task was completed and I returned to home and bed and await the pick-up of the completed test materials at 1930 and take them to World Courier Ground in Burlingame (near SFO) where it was palletized for shipment to ???someplace for grading. Got home by eleven.

Teachers. Teachers are tested at least annually for competence by the group we deliver the testing materials to, so they can administer tests all year long.

So why does California produce the least educated students in the 57 states?

[VetteOwner]

because California needs to just break off and sink already haha

im not exactly sure how the first half of your post corresponds to why california kids are dumb and why i need to know the time stuff happened...

what kind of tests, what kind of teachers, what grades they teaching?

every school ive ever been to (from gradeschool to college professors) we've had to do either teacher evaluations or achievement tests.

[shatto]

Precisely. If the teachers are competant, and presumably that means they can teach the fundamental school stuff, at all grade levels, the question remains, why did California schools drop from best in the nation to worst?

[bowtieguy]

i'm kinda split on this one...

teachers AND parents share the blame or credit, depending on the results. my kids attended(they are now home schooled) the same county i did as a child. i had mostly wonderful teachers who actually cared. the same schools now have mostly teachers that are collecting a pay check and waiting on a pension.

my parents did almost nothing to help me except in regard to reading--THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO. neither of them graduated high school, yet they both were able to attain wealth thru hard work, integrity, and frugal spending and saving.

teachers claim to be under paid. REALLY?! for what they're paid(starting), i could easily survive on alone. obviously w/ kids, a spouses income would be needed. so unless we're talking single mothers getting no help from the ex, it really is a false premise. the times i went to pick up my kids, i saw MANY new vehicles in the faculty parking lot--a huge percentage trucks and suvs. of course the perception would be as underpaid when one has a $500 car payment plus higher gas, maintenance, and insurance costs!

maybe cals large % of inner city schools play a role. can we blame single mothers for not being able to help their kids at home(working late hours, 2 jobs, etc)? could parents make better choices and stay together?

it's mother's day, so i'll blame the fathers that leave home and the teachers that underachieve!

[GasSavers_JoeBob]

Originally Posted by shatto

So why does California produce the least educated students in the 57 states?

Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, U.S. Virgin Islands, Midway Island, D.C. and Wake Island...they're now states?

But...to answer your question...if California was once the best in schooling children, what has changed? Discipline in the classroom? Discipline at home? Involvement of, er, parents in their children's education? Just the times?

Here's a little story...when I was about nine years old or so, I was riding home from school with my dad. (I had to stay after because I was really bad at arithmetic). We were driving through La Ca?ada, and we came upon a sign that read "Equestrian Xing". I knew what "xing" was, but I didn't know what "Equestrian" meant. So I got an explanation of what an equestrian was, and a little information on the derivation of the word, from Equus, latin for horse.

I haven't seen an "Equestrian Xing" sign in many years, just a picture of a guy on a horse. While it may be more universally recognizable, I think something has been lost...

[bowtieguy]

when i took my kids out of school, i wrote the school board a letter stating why we made our choice. in the letter contained a VERY short list of the teachers that i thought cared beyond their paycheck. i explained that the board needed to interview said individuals for the sake of the county, but more so for the children!

[VetteOwner]

gotta realize one thing: the teachers alot of you (especially the "older" members - no offence) were of a different breed that grew up in a much stricter time. new teachers nowadays were born in the 80's and were prolly raised by parents that grew up in the hippie generation. totally different than the after WW2 generation that your teachers were.

also gotta remember the discipline has gone way down. teachers cannot touch a student for any reason. if a student comes home crying or mad the parents obviously always side with the kid and never see it from the teachers standpoint.

most families both parents work especially in the lower income areas they HAVE to work. and as some of you know your tired from work and dont feel like doing 4th grade math problems haha.

so really i dont know who to blame or if there is any one party to blame. i think its just the way society has gone.

also especially in CA the Hispanic population has skyrocketed, they may not be able to speak let alone understand English enough to be taught stuff and thier parents my be too busy working to teach them or dont understand themselves so they struggle through school thus lowering the states rating

[GasSavers_BEEF]

first of all, my mother is a teacher. she is about 3-4 years from retirement. she is truly getting a paycheck. the kicker is why.

in the last 5 or so years of teaching she has either been or seen:

-(been) almost sued for breaking up a fight (wasn't thanks to the union)
-(seen) a coworker arrested on school property in front of students (he was a teacher)
-(been) told that she should give the advanced (AP) classes to the new teachers and then questioned about why 75% of her tech math class was failing which consisted of mostly seniors that didn't need the class to graduate.
-(been) told that a student could dress anyway they want to and nothing sould EVER be said about this (by the parent) after the student was sent home by the principle for violating the dress code (very relaxed dress code I mght add)
-(been) told that she should make more effort to let a parent know when grades are coming out after sending a letter, emailing, and calling the residence to let them know that report cards are coming (this is done for ALL the students at the school)
-(seen) drug deals go down and was told not to say anything or better that she didn't see anything (was told by other teachers and principle)

my mother works in north carolina but the problem seems to be everywhere. the accountability has been shifted to the teachers and off of the students and guardian (be it parents or others). my mother teaches highschool math and every year, the math department divies up work. which classes each teacher will get. she told me that she doesn't fight for classes anymore. here scores are the lowest in the school but she teaches all lower level classes. she says that every so often, she will get a student who actually cares but struggles. she says those are the ones that get here through. most either can do the work and chose not to or care so little that she can't tell if they could or couldn't.

all this and her salary is about what a fresh-out electrical engineer makes. her salary being for a teacher with 20+ years of experience. both occupations require 4 year degrees but to teach, you must also have a teachers licinse and continued learning (a given amount of credit hours per year throughout your entire career)

the last time I checked (and it has been a few years) fresh-out teachers were starting around 27-30K annually (the equivalent to a shift manager at your local micky-Ds)

I made more than that as a fresh-out 10+ years ago with a 2 year degree.

[bowtieguy]

i'm sorry to hear about your mother's vocational issues. our situation is quite different. my kids are(were) in elementary and middle school and there weren't dress, drug, and violence issues.

my kids were mostly A/B students, and we had issues dealing w/ the teachers not teaching, as well as not monitoring/disciplining other students. everywhere they go be it the doctor, dentist, school, etc our girls are complimented on their behavior. i think this was the issue--the misbehaving and struggling students got most of the attention.

when my kids would come home and ask for help w/ ENTIRE pages of homework...well you figure it. other parents observed the same. you're correct tho when stating that the teachers do not want to get involved. and i can imagine that left unchecked, high schools would become pretty bad as a result.

BTW, i just checked my local teachers pay scale...$32k to start, 44k avg, and 62.5k high end. i stand by my statement that they're not under paid. i could live on that.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

(just to set the record straight, my previos post wasn't directed towards bowtieguy but more a general rant)

the issue for me about being underpaid is that there are other proficiencies that require the same amount of education (and sometimes less)and the income potential is so much more along with less responsibility and accountability

where I work, a starting EE design engineer with a bachelors degree and zero experience comes through the door at 55k. in 5 years (depending on ability) can easily crack the 6 figure mark.

my mom's starting salary was 25ish years ago so I don't know it and it really isn't relative. her salary now is just above a beginning engineer.

my old supervisor told me that he checked into being a teacher when he was in college. he said the numbers were about what they were now. it really is a sacrifice to be a teacher. I think now the fresh teachers aren't doing it for the kids but more the stability that teachers have. that stability is nothing like it used to be but in todays market it is still better than most.

you are correct about the troubled kids. there is an old saying that we use around here. "the squeaky wheel get's the grease"

I don't think it is an issue of if they can live off of the money but more an issue of worth. these teachers are bringing up the next generation. they are teaching the ones who will be teachers, doctors, lawyers, truckdrivers, managers, even wal-mart employees.

I will admit that I am very biased on this subject since my mother is a teacher but I can also say that there are teachers on both sides. there are good ones and bad ones. there should be accountability but usually with greater responsibilty and accountability comes a higher paycheck. some teachers go through the motions and get paid. maybe it is good that I don't know teachers like that.