Instead of being an early EV adopter...

[ChewChewTrain]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

Laughing all the way to the bank. One of the reasons I can afford to pay cash for my new car, is I look at it like an accountant. I think my $12.9k (out the door-including everything) Mirage cost less than the DEPRECIATION on that Renault.

When self-driving cars are common and can be hailed and pick you up within minutes, car ownership will be a passe.

Speaking of accounting, they claim the average car sits unused 95% of the day. That's a costly asset to sit idle.

Ultimately, the cost of maintenance, inconvenience of storage, inconvenience of parking, rising cost of petrol, and just the stress of being wary of other drivers, AND the initial cost of buying a car will drive (pun unintended) people away from car ownership. It just won't pencil out.

[R.I.D.E.]

Originally Posted by Draigflag

You can get a new Zoe for £6999, or $8600 US dollars, starting to make sense yet?

Sure,
IF it had a 200 mile range.
IF it was available in the US.
If the battery was warranted for 10-100 at 80% of original capacity.

Been a long time since Renault sold cars here, but they are affiliated with Nissan, which seems to have developed some of their quality issues.

I have nothing against EVs, it's the price of admission that makes me hesitate.

The Mirage has 26k miles, 2 years owned in May 17. Should last me to 71 or so, for about another $6000. I can drive coast to coast for $100 in fuel and never stop for more than a few minutes.

[Draigflag]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

Sure,
IF it had a 200 mile range.
IF it was available in the US.
If the battery was warranted for 10-100 at 80% of original capacity.

Been a long time since Renault sold cars here, but they are affiliated with Nissan, which seems to have developed some of their quality issues.

I have nothing against EVs, it's the price of admission that makes me hesitate.

The Mirage has 26k miles, 2 years owned in May 17. Should last me to 71 or so, for about another $6000. I can drive coast to coast for $100 in fuel and never stop for more than a few minutes.

The new model has a 250 mile official range, expected 186-200 real world. In another 3 year, it will no doubt be double that again. Renault/Nissan also own Mitsubishi remember, and Renault rank just below Toyota in the reliability stakes. Renault also have the largest choice of commercial electric vehicles as far as I can tell. I was kind of in the same boat as you, getting over 60 MPG in my previous car, it made an electric car cost twice as much to run, but that's probably because I don't do enough miles, for a lot of people, they can yield huge savings. Even the Mercedes B220 EV which shares a lot of parts with the Tesla Model S can be had for less than £200 a month now.

[R.I.D.E.]

"In another 3 years it will be double that"

Yet another ludicrous prediction. The first EV available in the US in mass quantities has seen no significant range increase IN 6 YEARS.

FACT

Renault-Nissan does NOT own Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi is something like the 5th largest global conglomerate and could probably buy Renault-Nissan with their available cash-securities. After the fuel mileage fiasco Renault-Nissan bought around 35% of Mitsubishi's vehicle manufacturing subdivision.

FACT

How about posting facts capable of being verified with real evidence.

If the trajectory of your fantasy battery prediction was even close to factual then based on the over 100 year existence of lithium battery tech we could drive a car around the world on a single charge.

I remember the e-store claim of a 250 miles range after a 5 minute recharge.

The claim was so ludicrous they did not even bother to consider the fact that that much energy can NOT be transmitted through any residential power grid without instantly incinerating the residence itself.

[trollbait]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

My fuel costs less than insurance. I considered a new Nissan Leaf but the increased taxes and insurance easily surpassed the fuel cost in the Mirage. There is a Nissan Leaf on the local Craigslist with 34k miles, asking $7950. KBB says $6200 for a 5 year old Leaf car that was close to $30k new even with the $7500 tax credit.

In California and Colorado, the total incentive value is over $12k for a new Leaf. Then there are many used ones going on the market because of higher lease rates, with expected improvements in next generation, this all leads to low prices on used cars.

Where are the glorious predicted battery improvements and cost reductions over the last 6 years, since that same Leaf was new? Not pie in the sky, purchaseable TODAY 6 YEARS LATER.

When the federal tax credit law was written, the prediction was that Li-ion costs would drop 7% per year; not glorious but slow and steady. The actual rate has been better; 8% to 10% on average.

We are talking cars with 5 to 6 year generation cycles, not smart phones with one year ones. There are costs involved in upgrading a major component on a car that can make waiting until the next generation more attractive to the manufacturer. Toyota had developed the 40% peak thermal efficiency ICE in the new Prius a few years before, and chose not to put it into the gen3 as soon as it was ready.

In BEVs, the Leaf and iMiEV received battery upgrades during a model generation. The Leaf got the lizard pack that was resistant to heat damage, and the iMiEV got a chemistry that performed better in the cold. Neither resulted in an increase to range.

The Spark EV got a battery upgrade too, but I don't know what it improved. The Volt got the same upgrade with a slight boost to EV performance, but the car got a bigger boost when GM released their initial capacity buffer was too conservative, and they let the car use more of it.

The 101 mile Leaf has a MSRP of around $34k. The next generation BEV Bolt has 238 miles for a little more than three grand more. The next gen Leaf should arrive in 2018, and will have a range comparable to the Bolt.

If those predictions were even barely accurate, that same Leaf would be a bargain, buy it and eventually replace the battery with one with twice the range, right? 200 mile electric car for $12k, would work perfectly for me, and I have 220 service in my geothermally heated garage (50 degrees minimum year round, $0 cost).

The only manufacturer that will likely support upgraded packs for older cars is Tesla. The others won't for the same reason phone and tablet manufacturers don't support upgrading components on their products; they want you to buy the new model.

An aside, the leaf is a larger, and nicer car than a Mirage.

For now I love the 3.3 cents per mile fuel costs and $23 a month for insurance. Property taxes under $100 a year. Oil changes every 7500 for $16 using Mobil 1 and quality filters.

In the week I was away for the holidays, gas rose over twenty cents a gallon where I live.

[Draigflag]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

"In another 3 years it will be double that"

Yet another ludicrous prediction. The first EV available in the US in mass quantities has seen no significant range increase IN 6 YEARS.

FACT

Renault-Nissan does NOT own Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi is something like the 5th largest global conglomerate and could probably buy Renault-Nissan with their available cash-securities. After the fuel mileage fiasco Renault-Nissan bought around 35% of Mitsubishi's vehicle manufacturing subdivision.

FACT

How about posting facts capable of being verified with real evidence.

If the trajectory of your fantasy battery prediction was even close to factual then based on the over 100 year existence of lithium battery tech we could drive a car around the world on a single charge.

I remember the e-store claim of a 250 miles range after a 5 minute recharge.

The claim was so ludicrous they did not even bother to consider the fact that that much energy can NOT be transmitted through any residential power grid without instantly incinerating the residence itself.

If you're going to be a grumpy old bugger about stuff, at least quote me properly, I said it will "no doubt be double that" that's not a quoted fact, just a personnel assumption based on how quickly the tech is developing. Lithuim air battery tech is currently being developed, Lithium-air means using oxygen as the oxidiser, rather than a material. The result is batteries that can be a fifth of the price and a fifth as light as lithium-ion, plus they could make phones and cars last five times longer. Then there's silicon-graphene, a huge breakthrough in energy density that could in a few years give a 300% jump in battery energy density, that could triple electric car driving range. Batteries are already priced lower than the 2020 predictions, the cost will only keep falling.

These "break through's" are happening all the time, you need to keep up old boy!

[ChewChewTrain]

In a Netherlands interview, Elon Musk claims technology advances extend battery capacity by 5-10% per year. Keep in mind that's compounded annually. That's how we're about to jump from the typical 80 mile EV range to the 2017 Bolts and Model 3 Teslas with 200+ mile ranges.

Of course, this won't affect me, as I will the last man standing with the ONLY petrol car in the world. I just need to build my own backyard oil refinery to process crude oil.

[R.I.D.E.]

Musk followed in the footsteps of Joseph Kennedy. Both bailed out of a stock market that was oversold and overhyped. Both contributed greatly to the depressions that followed with old Joe's depression taking 25 years and a World War to see the market recover to the levels of late 1929.

Roosevelt was so impressed with Joe Kennedy's timing he made him the first head of the securities and exchange commission. In essence "the fox running the chicken coop", but it was an expensive lesson for old Joe, costing him two sons and one lobotomized daughter.

Has the Nasdac reached the $5k level where it was when Musk bailed with his half billion.

Been reading about battery tech advancements for at least 4 decades. Ain't happened yet.

If the world was so close to a catastrophic global climate situation, then why would Toyota still be practicing the century old planned obsolescence with their hybrid advancements. Maybe their customers are complaining about saving too much fuel.

[R.I.D.E.]

Originally Posted by Draigflag

If you're going to be a grumpy old bugger about stuff, at least quote me properly, I said it will "no doubt be double that" that's not a quoted fact, just a personnel assumption based on how quickly the tech is developing. Lithuim air battery tech is currently being developed, Lithium-air means using oxygen as the oxidiser, rather than a material. The result is batteries that can be a fifth of the price and a fifth as light as lithium-ion, plus they could make phones and cars last five times longer. Then there's silicon-graphene, a huge breakthrough in energy density that could in a few years give a 300% jump in battery energy density, that could triple electric car driving range. Batteries are already priced lower than the 2020 predictions, the cost will only keep falling.

These "break through's" are happening all the time, you need to keep up old boy!

Ah, don't answer anything directly that might reveal your flawed thinking. Use a propaganda tactic called "killing the messenger"
While you act as a proponent of better efficiency, your actions are just the opposite. I had my "crazy with the power period" with cars when gas was 30 cents a gallon in the US, pre OPEC. I held CDs that paid 5% in 2008-9 while the US stock market crashed from $14k to $6.5k and never lost a dime in that market. People that laughed at me for staying out of the market lost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You get one chance at this life. For your own sake maybe listening and respecting those whose life experiences exceed your own by vast amounts, just might save you a few predictable and easily avoidable situations, but based on what you post here, I doubt it.

[Draigflag]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

Ah, don't answer anything directly that might reveal your flawed thinking. Use a propaganda tactic called "killing the messenger"
While you act as a proponent of better efficiency, your actions are just the opposite. I had my "crazy with the power period" with cars when gas was 30 cents a gallon in the US, pre OPEC. I held CDs that paid 5% in 2008-9 while the US stock market crashed from $14k to $6.5k and never lost a dime in that market. People that laughed at me for staying out of the market lost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You get one chance at this life. For your own sake maybe listening and respecting those whose life experiences exceed your own by vast amounts, just might save you a few predictable and easily avoidable situations, but based on what you post here, I doubt it.

Nope, I'm one of those people who just doesn't give a hoot about anyone's opinions, especially dinosaurs like you, stuck in the past with your exceedingly niave and outdated thoughts, like mentioning 600 year old Historical events and applying them to the gun laws of today, keep it up, it's hilarious to read you dig your own grave haha. There's no point trying to analyse me buddy, you know very little about me and my personal life, but I can assure you, it's very fun, I make the most of it and the fact that I spent double my wage in 2016 proves that. Learn not to be a wimp and take things personaly and you'll start loving what's left of your life too