Do Sales Merit An Auto Bailout?

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Snax

Singling this golf course out is a ridiculous red herring

You've missed my point entirely. Someone else posted the golf course, then you defended it by talking about its small cost when you break it out per person. The same defense can be used for ANY waste on ANY side, and EVERYBODY has big chunks of waste.

Are you seriously suggesting that the golf course is the only sizable gratuitous waste on the union's side?

None of the groups involved are innocent.

[bowtieguy]

i think my point was missed as well. no matter how great or small...

waste, mismanagement, seemingly insignificant golf courses and such, etc can define an individual and in this case ruin a corporation.

he who can't be trusted with little, certainly can't be trusted with much!

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by BEEF

...not sure if I would take a new car if it was under 10k.

i really think this is going to have to happen to generate sales. budget cuts and profit will be sacrificed of course.

it is already starting to happen. i read an article a few weeks ago showing 2 models in the $10k range, stripped eco boxes obviously. but, with some belt tightening who knows what will happen.

i didn't intend to suggest that anything but an entry level car could drop to that level. but, certainly the concept could(should) bring down the MSRPs accross the board to ALL present production motor vehicles.

thanks for the good post comment.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

I have actually seen the nissan versa for under 10k and I think it is kia that has a model under 10k.

I have purchased a few new vehicles. my wife's element was new with 13 miles on the odo at purchase and my truck (dodge dakota) was special ordered and had 7 miles on it when posession was taken of it. I don't plan to buy a new car for a while but I don't rule it out. more than likely, not a domestic which is sad because I do love those dodge trucks. If I buy another truck, it will probably be a toyota. the resale value and overall quality of the toyotas has really impressed me over the years.

I hope that prices will go down and stay down. I fear that the lower prices are just for the year end deals and to get number of cars down before tax time so they don't have to pay for left over inventory. maybe I am wrong.

I have my own opinions about the UAW (whick I wish not to mention) but in the end. now they are spending our money. tax money is our money, you and I. they being the domestic auto makers (GM and chrysler mostly). hopefully they will put it to good use. I want a GM that gets 40+ mpg. honda did it, toyota did it, and they got no incentives to do it eiter (not that I know of anyway) no bail out either.

I guess time will tell on this one but until the global economy gets better, I am not looking at adding to my fleet at all.

[Snax]

Originally Posted by bowtieguy

i think my point was missed as well. no matter how great or small...

waste, mismanagement, seemingly insignificant golf courses and such, etc can define an individual and in this case ruin a corporation.

he who can't be trusted with little, certainly can't be trusted with much!

Your point to conflate multi-million dollar executive bonuses and options with a $10 per year union member perk - provided by their own union dues - was not missed. THAT is MY point.

I think the golf course was a stupid idea, but again, that's money that is not bargained for contractually with the automakers for that purpose, i.e. it's as completely irrelevant to the either side of the discussion as whether the employees use name brand dishwasher detergent at home or the generic store brand. The automakers have zero control and concern over whether the union runs a golf course or not, because it has zero impact on the contract and the corporation. It's insulting to not just the union members, but to anybody reading this to suggest that it is anything more than that, unlike those who zoom across the country on luxury jets and receive bonuses when their companies have actually lost money!

I'm sick of the bs, spin, and outright lies continually thrown out with respect to unions. This latest round of 'golf course waste by the UAW' is straight out the Republican spin machine, hoping that people will never actually bother to parse the truth out of their words. So either stow it, or expect to be challenged.

[GasSavers_BEEF]

I think that there are many factors that have caused the financial situation of the domestic auto makers.

Is the union (UAW) at fault?... yes. Is upper management of the companies themselves at fault?... yes. Is the general public to blame for the condition of the companies?... yes (in some ways)

many facts have come out about the unions. things like excessive pay (which some dispute) but comperable jobs at foreign auto makers get paid significantly less. I mean the jobs within the borders of the US not in foreign countries. there is also the issue of laid off workers getting paid 95 percent of their salaries when there is nothing for them to do so they get paid to sit in the break room and watch TV waiting for their company to find a place for them to work.

the upper management of the companies have also contributed heavily to the situation. first of all not preparing for hard times. in any company, you have good years and bad, ups and downs. there should be a buffer to get you through hard times. also, they decide to take hefty bonuses and have private jets and other very lavish furnishings that are provided by the company.

and the general public. "joe public". this is the person that these cars are made for. for quite some time, bigger has been better. the bigger the SUV the more clout you have, the better off you must be (because you can afford it). the public has said that we want bigger cars and faster, more powerful cars. this idea does have a flaw though. in any risky business, you should diversify yourself and offer a variety of options so that if one part of the business does bad then you have something to pick up the slack.

I don't have references to back up my claims in this post but most of this is general knowledge. I also don't blame one part of the problem more than the other. I think that the biggest problem is that we (the american people) are paying for their decisions. If I owned a business, I would be expected to pay for my decisions. for the record, I do not own a business so I am speculating. who knows, maybe even small business owners can ask for a bail out.

I don't say this to chose sides or to discredit someone or to back someone else up, but more to voice my opinion.

was the bail out a good idea?????
time will tell on that one

[bowtieguy]

just another view...

my father-in-law is furious w/ talk of bailouts. he lost his job and half his pension when eastern airlines went under. HE wants to know where his bailout is/was.

totally different circumstances, but wrong none the less. my thought is that HIS job, like many in gov't(and others), pay WAY too much in pensions. i believe the future will dictate eliminating pensions. afterall, some companies are limiting/eliminating 401ks.

concerning gov't(tax money), perhaps this should happen sooner than later. overpaid pensions might be worse than mismanagement or waste.

[R.I.D.E.]

Just bought a Nissan Rogue for the wife, base model for $3200 off the factory window sticker. $18,094, $19,132 out the door.

We gave her daughter her 06 Murano with 35k miles, and took her 01 CRV to clean up and sell.

On Unions:

My father went to England in November of 1943 to fly B17s over Germany. His first mission was 12-24-43. At that time the Union at North American was on strike, so the arrival of the P51 Mustangs was delayed due to the strike.
He thought they should be lined up and shot for treason. Their actions were killing people fighting for their freedom.

In 1973 I worked at a Ford dealership. We got a truck that was brand new, never sold. When you started it up it dumped a quart of oil out the bellhousing in 30 seconds. Tore it down and found a hole drilled into the main oil gallery behind the flex plate. there was a note written above the hole.

"You found it you SOB".

When people sabotage their product and leave that kind of garbage for their customer to sort out, they don't deserve any sympathy from me. I have only owned one US made vehicle since then.

I have a letter from GM in response to my request to confer with them on my engine design. The letter basically stated that they would listen, but I would get no compensation for my ideas.

Now they are spending my money becasue they were to arrogant to listen.
To arrogant to innovate, to stupid to listen, to dumb to think ahead of something as simple as the consequences of a oil price hike.

Let them drown in their own debt.

Let the Unions buy the companies and see if they can run them better. I guarantee you the Morons would change their attitudes when they know their jobs and retirement are on the line.

Management recieving huge salaries and bonus packages for running companies into the ground. That makes about as much sense as helping a person who is trying to stab you.

So I act responsibly, think ahead and save, get out of debt, and still save.
All the time the government is spending like their is no tomorrow. It's time for a Constitutional Convention, and throwing all the bums out of Washington. We dont need no stinking representatives. I can dial a number, enter a code and vote directly for any legislation, without having a bunch a greedy criminals robbing me blind, calling it representation.

Can you tell I am a pessimist. Next year you will see 10% inflation, and 10% unemployment and it could get a lot worse. My dad (still alive) lived through the Great Depression. If we try to spend our way out of this one we may see inflation like the Weimar Republic in Germany after WW1.

regards
gary

[bowtieguy]

R.I.D.E,

i think we're on the same page. i read today that Ford's 2010 hybrid Fusion will enable the electric motor to stay engaged up to 47mph. THAT is the type of innovation i believe is a beginning of a financial rebound. too little, too late; or perhaps to much @ $26k?

i'm sorry to here your idea is not welcomed by more. hopefully VT and your congressman(senator) will help forward your cause.

you stole my thunder about quality of work tho...

i eluded earlier to lack of integrity, and i was not solely referring to CEOs and management. frontline workers of the grind need to step it up. from the orlando sentinel today:

HOW TO KEEP YOURSELF EMPLOYED

"...Make yourself as valuable as you can to your employer. Make yourself a superstar, overachieving."

uh, this SHOULD be a no-brainer!!! sooooo many people get away with as little work as possible, use ALL their sick days, steal time or merchandise, etc.
THIS is what's killing our companies.

some things(talent) you just wake up with or you don't. others can be learned. we MUST work harder and help each other. socialism just encourages underachievers.

my employer pays incentive based wages, and it is used covertly as an accountability control device. that's not to suggest this type of stategy is a cure-all, but it would go a long way towards economic health.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by bowtieguy

perhaps to much @ $26k?

That shouldn't be a problem. First off, the market for >$26k cars seems much larger than the market for <$26k. Second, the last time I investigated tax incentives, new hybrid models had a huge advantage over established models -- so much so that it would probably compete easily with the Prius, and has the advantage of being a familiar-looking regular family car instead of a funny-looking (to the general public) purpose-built hybrid.

Base MSRP for existing hybrid models (from http://autos.yahoo.com) -- search for hybrid vehicles returned 40 results:
Prius: 21,500
Civic: 22,600
Malibu: 23,895
Camry: 25,200
Altima: 25,480
Tribute: 25,485
VUE: 25,645
...the remaining results were variations of those vehicle platforms, followed by somewhat larger SUVs, followed by full size truck-based SUVs, followed by $56,000-$106,000 hybrid Lexuses (Lexi?).

As time passes, MSRP will drop as will tax incentive.