CAFE Objections: Big-3 + Even from Toyota

[The Toecutter]

But when there are 60k pigs on the street beating peaceful protesters with permits like they were during the FTAA demonstrations in Miami in '03, it makes me realize that peace only goes so far. The media claimed that we were rioting in '03 and was always citing the professionalism of the MPD and expressing how grateful they were for the MPD keeping the city safe from the people who were responsible for the '99 Seattle WTO revolution. After seeing that firsthand, I don't consider it bad to throw a brick at a cop in body armor who wants to kick the crap out of you for expressing yourself legally.

A brick? I feel that any authority figure who assaults you for expressing your constitutional rights deserves nothing less than a bullet. I know our founding fathers would feel that way if they were around. People need to stop letting authority herd them into 'free speech zones' that defeat the entire purpose of free speech, and assert their right to free speech with force if they need to. If you read the writings of our founding fathers it is very clear that this is exactly what they have demanded of us as Americans.

I remember reading about the incident in '03. The protests were initially peaceful until the city bureaucrats and corporate types decided they didn't want the protestors around for a second longer, and that's when the cops started cracking skulls. There were families with their children at these protests and they got shot at with wooden bullets and pepper balls and had tear gas grenades thrown at them. Absolutely deplorable.

Exactly!. Toyota (and other Japanese makers) set out around the early 70's to be just a little better than the stodgy big 3. At that time, the big 3 believed in planed-obsolescence through making inferior products.

Sadly, they still do believe in planned obsolescence. Instead of 100,000 mile life in cars, they last 150,000 miles. Not much has changed for the better, but more has changed for the worse. With all of the new cars' systems being integrated with each other, you can no longer work on it yourself and neither can any mom and pop auto servicing center. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars of proprietary equipment for each specific model of car. One particularly egregious case is the 2001 and later Impalas. If one computer goes bad, you have to replace the other three simultaneously, and if you mess anything up in the process, you have to buy more components and try again.

The fact is we as consumers aren't going to see the car's we want to see for sometime if ever. Sure a lot could be done about aerodynamics. But I for one am not going to drive around in a car that looks like a double dong on wheels.

Do a search on the GM Precept(.16 Cd), Ford Prodigy(.20 Cd), Dodge Intrepid ESX2(.19 Cd), and Opel Eco Speedster(.20 Cd). Those are perfectly normal looking cars.

Subtle, almost imperceptible, changes in the angles of the front and rear of a car can dramatically lower drag coefficient.

I have thought and fought hard on areo mods for my Civic. And short of making it into a Asian lower rider it isn't going to happen. I could put a under tray on it, smooth out the nose. ( here comes that dong look ) Wheel skirts on the back, french the tail lights. Put skinny Centerlines on it. Light the fender wells, play mexican music and run multi color window tint and get a whole 2 mpg more out of it. Aint going to happen. Just like Honda isn't going to put a 5 or 6MT tranny in the HCHII.

Your gain will be small with the mods you can do because the car's body is already designed and there's not a whole lot you can do to change its overall shape. Didn't the new Civic have a .28 Cd? That's where its FE gain over the previous model came from despite increased weight by over 100 lbs, and an extra .1 L of engine displacement.

The new Prius(.26 Cd) is the most aerodynamic car currently on the market, which just barely beats the 1921 Rumpler Tropfenwagen(.27 Cd). When Honda was selling the Insight, that was the most aerodynamic car any major automaker ever sold the public(.25 Cd).

Aerodynamic cars don't have to all look alike or follow the same outline. There's a world of difference in the appearances between the Rumpler, Tatra T77a, GM Precept, and Ford Probe V. The Rumpler basically resembles a streamlined Model T or any similar car from that time period, just as an Alfa Romeo BAT7(.19 Cd) resembles a streamlined car from the 1950s, with its tailfins and such.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

Sadly, they still do believe in planned obsolescence. Instead of 100,000 mile life in cars, they last 150,000 miles.

Hey now. first hand experience shows ~230k and ~170k miles respectively. And more than 400k according to another family member. Course, some people can make a chebby go 500k miles, so it may be more the owner than the car.

[bowtieguy]

so now, almost 2 years later, the big 3 are again in washington. this time their posture is a bit less confident.

is supply and demand yet on the same page in regard to more efficient vehicles? perhaps, but they better make them more affordable via cutting salaries and benefits while reorganizing!

[Snax]

The issue of employee wages and benefits is a red herring in the GM and Chrysler financial woes. They are literally a drop in a very large bucket of financial trouble.

The automaker has interest expense of about $2.9 billion on its $43.3 billion in bonds, JPMorgan Chase & Co. analyst Himanshu Patel wrote in a report yesterday. Without a cut in debt, interest may rise to $3.8 billion on debt of $60 billion, he said. - Bloomberg.com

Even if all of their employees agreed to the cuts similar to what their non-union brothers and sisters at Toyota and Honda are getting, it would not be enough to cover the debt servicing expenses. The refusal of Republican senators to put through a bridge loan is nothing more than self serving motives to bolster the market share of foreign owned manufacturers in their home states, or union busting. Take your pick. 700 Billion for banks no questions asked. But try to save MILLIONS of jobs in the automotive industry and the Republicans have nothing more than a big 'f--- off' to offer.

This isn't about the economy to them. It's the same old political roadblocking **** that has lost them so much authority in the house and senate already. Make no mistake about this one thing: If GM and Chrysler fail, the depression that will afflict our nation will surpass that of the 30s and it will take DECADES to recover fully without aggressive SOCIALISM!

[bobc455]

Glad to hear another voice against socialism

I gotta agree, the usually pro-business republicans seem to have it in for this industry. It's a bit shocking to me, I guess I'm a bit naive on this. The only guess I have is that the republicans don't like the car industry because it has so many union members (who vote democratic), but I'm not sure if that really makes any sense.

I've heard some republicans say "we'd just be prolonging the inevitable", which might or might not be true- but by prolonging it you give the economy a chance to adjust instead of just sending tens of millions out of their jobs in a "shock", which we would probably never recover from. An adjustement over a few years would be MUCH less devastating.

Of course I was listening to Barney Frank (by accident, I wouldn't go out of my way to listen) and the interviewer asked "so you believe in corporate welfare?" and he responded "Of course I believe in welfare, do you think people should starve?". So, we have a ways to go I guess...

[bowtieguy]

it's a matter of perspective really...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1215/p02s01-usgn.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,452806,00.html

i believe the republicans want the big 3 to show initiative to help themselves FIRST! afterall they declined a reduction in benefits and salaries. that's not ALL of the problem, but it would be a good start.

i believe they should give detailed plans of how they will turn their respective corps around before being given a dime as well. more efficient, more affordable vehicles ARE the future.

spending got us into this economic fiasco; spending more will NOT get us out of it(alone). taxing our future for the lack accountability today? i'm not buying it! i stand with missourians--SHOW ME(what you're gonna do).

edit: BTW, if they get a bailout, who's next? i need a bailout, what about me?

[VetteOwner]

lol give it 10 years on the tundra, the frames will rust out just like the Tacomas did...always have always will rust out.

american trucks are just the opposite, sure the body will rust away but id be damned if the frame were as strong and solid as new...

[Snax]

Originally Posted by bowtieguy

. . .
spending got us into this economic fiasco; spending more will NOT get us out of it(alone). taxing our future for the lack accountability today? i'm not buying it! i stand with missourians--SHOW ME(what you're gonna do).

edit: BTW, if they get a bailout, who's next? i need a bailout, what about me?

The problem is that this issue goes multiple levels beyond the poor management of the auto manufacturers to supporting industries that were more responsibly managed. Trucking companies for example, employing drivers from all areas, are laying drivers over for days at a time just waiting for hauls to give them, whereas just within the last year many of those layovers were a matter of hours if anything at all.

I can think of a couple of local manufacturers here that will be adversely affected and forced to lay people off if domestic auto makers are forced into bankruptcy. These are the same people who pay for the services the company I work for provides. Am I next to get laid off??? If so, so long cellular phones. So long Netflix. So long more expensive US manufactured clothing for my family. Seriously, this stuff runs REALLY deep into the fabric of our economy - and we haven't even hit the peak of the mortgage crisis yet.

And I forgot the most important point: A bridge loan (it's not a bailout/giveaway), is in fact a bailout of YOU if you depend on the income from a job or business, because not doing it puts it all at greater risk.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Originally Posted by VetteOwner

lol give it 10 years on the tundra, the frames will rust out just like the Tacomas did...always have always will rust out.

american trucks are just the opposite, sure the body will rust away but id be damned if the frame were as strong and solid as new...

I'll second that... my old 74 chevy had rust holes in the fenders you could stick your arms through, and the floorpans were starting to rust through, but the frame was 100% solid. Man I miss that truck...

-Jay

EDIT: I was just thinking... My current DD, The Beast, is 10 years old, 155,000 miles and the paint still looks great and there's no rust. I think the body panels are galvonized steel. There's one really deep scratch on the rocker panel that I never fixed because you can't see it unless you're almost under the truck. This has been there since I bought the truck, and it has yet to even turn brown, nevermind rust. I'd say they've gotten a lot better with their rust protection.

[VetteOwner]

i dunno my s-10 has great paint except for the cab cornners (kinda dumb design when you look at it, theres a hole where salt/water/anything can get into from the bottom then it just pools there) and the rear fenders. (one from where the tire caught the lip and seperated the 2 pieces of sheetmetal letting in water and salt)

i dunno i still think model A's have held up very well for the last 80 years.