AmericanSolutions.com

[Mayhim]

We will never learn to conserve or seek new energy paradigms until we are forced to by the the disappearance of oil. As the supplies run out we will be forced to do these things as the price rises.

But we aren't to that point. There is no shortage of oil, there's a shortage of refining capacity. America has been forced to sit on vast amounts of oil that cannot be drilled for. Even if it were produced there is a shortage of refining capacity. Both problems are caused by the environ-mentalists, and I suppose there are a variety of reasons they feel a need to do these things. Drill and refine, use LNG, build more nuke plants, expand all that peripheral stuff that the greenies love, and step aside for a New World. It will take all those things in concert, but you can't seriously exclude petroleum and expect the world to hum along swimmingly.

There are huge amounts of oil still waiting to be found above and beyond what is already in the books. How can anybody say with a straight face that we've reached anything like peak oil? That's just silliness built on a huge pile of bs. Peak of production, maybe, but a point that was decided upon...not forced upon.

While we're at it, No, I don't believe in Global Warming any more than I believe in the boogeyman my Dad used to scare me with to get me to do things his way. Same priniciple, different abuser(s). Provable global warming and cooling have been happening since before mankind ever kindled a fire. Everthing else is conjecture. And there are a bucket full of equally big-deal scientists that think it's all a bunch of hooey.

Again, we will change when the change is forced upon us by natural and economic forces. Market forces. Not Chicken Littles (present company exlcuded).

And if we get to tell other people what they NEED and grab it out of their hands, that's a quick way to a new (un)civil war. Who are a bunch of hemp-clad sandal wearers to tell soccer moms or rednecks what suv or truck they can have? If you want solar panels dangling out of your ponytail, that's up to you. But I think it's the height of arrogance to think you are The Way and The Light about all things Neccessary. I vote No, thanks.

As an aside, I have no idea if you have a ponytail or wear hemp or sandals. Kind of a generic "you." Not trying to be mean or anything...

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by cems70

What I'm advocating is to use this period of rising oil prices to 1) learn how to conserve (i.e drive less, car pool, use public transportation etc.), 2) start manufacturing more fuel efficient vehicles, and 3) put lots of money into research for the next generation of alternative fuels and technology to propel our vehicles of the future.

1) DONE!, and i added conservation of other resources as well!

2) DONE!, bought one, tho it's used.

3) CAN'T! out of my control. and besides, the US gov't in their infinite wisdom is blocking nuclear power, cancelling solar and other rebates, NOT conserving themselves...

so now what? financial stress MUST be relieved for those that ARE conserving, while slowly being squeezed to the point of ruin.

[JV-Tuga]

So what the "drill for oil" cartel is proposing is a continuation of the status quo because the king has clothes...they're just invisible.

Why are all jobs oil dependent? Why can't other industries spring up around new technologies that will alleviate that economical suffering?

Here is a PM I sent someone on a different forum not too long ago and I find it relates to the topic at hand so I might as well just share it with you:

Originally Posted by JV-Tuga

I know my views aren't even shared, much less embraced by the vast majority of U.S. citizens so before the thread suffers a meltdown and a seriously O.T. discussion I decided to just send it to you as a PM.

You're worried about the here and now but you should be looking further down the road. Change or die, that's what will happen to the economy. The way I see it it's a good thing. The economy will be streamlined. Waste will be curtailed. Every efficiency will be wrung out of everything. People around major urban centres may start considering leaving the car at home and taking public transit (like we all should, anyway). Technology that might have been in the back burner - because ours has become a society of consumption where a lot of things have become disposable that probably shouldn't be - well, those technologies may get a big, deserved, boost and actually see the light of day or be developed ahead of target because the demand is there. Technologies that one day, when oil actually runs out (and it doesn't actually, literally, have to run out to run out) will save our asses and give our great grandchildren some semblance of the quality of life we've grown accustomed to and take for granted. What I mean by "it doesn't actually, literally, have to run out to run out" is that when it gets scarce enough there won't be enough production to meet demand and it will be sold at the price of gold and there will be rationing and things like that. It will be out of reach for the vast majority of the populace. If other things are brought in to replace it great, otherwise governments may go to war and civilization may revert to some pre-industrialized form.

On the other hand right now Mr. Unionized Worker at the auto plant that used to make gas guzzlers may have to receive some re-training and maybe even move to take advantage of new job opportunities.

If this lasts long enough manicured lawns may become a thing of the past. That is another good thing, since lawns require humongous amounts of water and fertilizers and so on to stay looking a healthy green. On the other hand people may realize that local plant species will add variety and individuality to their gardens, instead of the nondescript green rugs everyone throws in front of their homes.

All in all, if people start adapting fast enough and taking advantage of all the opportunities this brings, it may actually be a good thing.

Why do you have to drive to work? What would happen if you and everyone else, like us, who has been pushed out of cities because of the price of homes, the cost of living, or whatever the reason may be, started to look for a job where we live instead of the big centres? When only management can afford to live in cities and workers get pushed away but decide to look for local options what will happen? If your job can be done by tele-commute both you and the company may come out on top, otherwise...your guess is as good as mine, but change will have to happen.

Let the nit picking begin.

[Mayhim]

This entire sad kabuki dance is predicated on "facts" that haven't been proved.

Manmade global warming is far from settled. Peak oil is only a theory, while huge resources are discovered almost monthly. Radical environmentalism is the new religion and based on little more than emotion.

And, politicians follow along because emotion=money.

Truely sad.

[civic_matic_00]

drilling for oil domestically will keep oil dollars within the US. that is better than sending billions of dollars overseas. think about that.

we will use oil for years to come, I'd rather keep the billions here than overseas.

[JV-Tuga]

Originally Posted by Mr Incredible

This entire sad kabuki dance is predicated on "facts" that haven't been proved.

Manmade global warming is far from settled. Peak oil is only a theory, while huge resources are discovered almost monthly. Radical environmentalism is the new religion and based on little more than emotion.

And, politicians follow along because emotion=money.

Truely sad.

What has not been proven? That we are dependent on oil? That oil money ends up fueling wars? That oil and its by-products are harmful to the environment and pretty much every living thing, except maybe some bacteria? You seem to be pretty emotional yourself. To keep hitting that same key makes absolutely no sense. Who gives a rat's *** if the economy is good if you're destroying the environment in the process, people's health suffers and we're always on the brink?

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to look for viable alternatives and build industries around those alternatives instead?

Originally Posted by civic_matic_00

drilling for oil domestically will keep oil dollars within the US. that is better than sending billions of dollars overseas. think about that.

we will use oil for years to come, I'd rather keep the billions here than overseas.

You would rather turn the white polar cap black. That's what you are basically saying. Way to go. Since you don't seem to care about our collective backyard let me know where you live so I can also dump my waste in your backyard.

[civic_matic_00]

Originally Posted by JV-Tuga

What has not been proven? That we are dependent on oil? That oil money ends up fueling wars? That oil and its by-products are harmful to the environment and pretty much every living thing, except maybe some bacteria? You seem to be pretty emotional yourself. To keep hitting that same key makes absolutely no sense. Who gives a rat's *** if the economy is good if you're destroying the environment in the process, people's health suffers and we're always on the brink?

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to look for viable alternatives and build industries around those alternatives instead?


You would rather turn the white polar cap black. That's what you are basically saying. Way to go. Since you don't seem to care about our collective backyard let me know where you live so I can also dump my waste in your backyard.

we're already using oil right now. drilling for oil can be done safely, technology is avialable now to extract oil safely and cleanly.

would you rather keep funding terrorists with our own dollars? oil will be used for a few ore decades. the best way to deal with the crisis is to drill our own oil and keep our money here, keep raising fuel efficiency, and keep searching for alternative fuels. you will not have any alternative fuel that will replace oil 100%. if you know of something that can do so right now then show us. in the meantime, folks like you who keep saying that we shouldn't drill will keep funding terrorists by sending all of our oil dollars to unfriendly countries.

the environment can be protected while we drill and use our own oil. we are using oil right now anyway so why not use the option of drilling our own oil and keep the money here. billions upon billions of dollars that can fuel our economy instead of foreign economies. what you don't think about is that we are already stuck in the oil trap and to keep the status quo of buying foreign oil will only keep draining the nation's coffers.

China is already drilling for oil 50 miles off the coast of Florida, you will keep us from drilling but you will never keep them from drilling. that's in our own coast, their technology is inferior, do you think they will care about our coast? the US could at least require better safe guards in the drilling operations, China and Cuba will not give a rat's *ss.

now back to your statement of "turning the polar ice cap black," WE ALREADY HAVE OIL OPERATIONS IN ALASKA, LAST I CHECKED, ALASKA IS STILL PRISTINE. additional drilling operations will not destroy Alaska, safeguards can be followed, funds can be derived from oil profits that can be set aside and used to pay for operations that will keep it clean.

[trollbait]

China isn't drilling off the US coast.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/40994.html

Cleanly is a realtive term in oil extraction. Getting the crude from the Canadian tar sands results in contaminated water held in man made lakes. The shale oil will require more water to refine thasn the tar sands.

There will come a time when oil is worth more for what can made from it, than for burning it. Better to save domestic reserves for that time.

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by bowtieguy

http://www.americansolutions.com/act...b-346a1e096659

for those of you who would like to make your voice heard about domestic drilling for oil. not sure how much good it will do, but it just costs a few minutes of your time.

i recommend contacting your congressmen to let them know that he/she will not get your vote for next term w/out supporting domestic drilling for oil.

just wanted to give an update to those interested...

at last count, a half million signatures has been achieved. 3 million is the goal. PLEASE sign the petition and tell everyone you know!--in person, by phone, email, whatever.
thank you.

it is ABSOLUTELY working. florida governor charlie crist is changing his view against drilling off the coast of "his" state.

[civic_matic_00]

Originally Posted by trollbait

China isn't drilling off the US coast.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/40994.html

Cleanly is a realtive term in oil extraction. Getting the crude from the Canadian tar sands results in contaminated water held in man made lakes. The shale oil will require more water to refine thasn the tar sands.

There will come a time when oil is worth more for what can made from it, than for burning it. Better to save domestic reserves for that time.

China probably backtracked their plan. Chinese rigs have been spotted in that area before, it wouldn't be hard for them to remove them quickly:

Cuba, China Drilling for Oil 50 Miles from Florida Shores

House bill aims to end U.S. moratorium in waters twice as far from shore
Written By: James M. Taylor
Published In: Environment News
Publication Date: August 1, 2006
Publisher: The Heartland Institute


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Legislation to relax restrictions on offshore oil and gas recovery passed the U.S. House of Representatives Resources Committee on June 21 by a vote of 29-9.

House Resolution 4761, with more than 160 co-sponsors, gained significant attention after Cuba announced it would expand its leasing of oil and natural gas for Chinese drilling within 50 miles of the Florida Keys.

The House legislation would end all federal moratoria on resource recovery more than 100 miles from U.S. shores. Individual states would have the option of allowing recovery between 50 and 100 miles from their shores.

Currently, there is no blanket federal prohibition on resource recovery more than 100 miles from shore, but there are patchwork prohibitions established on a case-by-case basis. There is currently a blanket moratorium on resource recovery less than 100 miles from shore. These restrictions amount to a self-imposed moratorium on 85 percent of the nation's offshore oil reserves.


China Drilling Near Florida

The presence of Chinese oil rigs, there by agreement with Cuba, within view of the Florida coastline has irked state residents. Cuba has announced it will expand those operations.

"I saw all kinds of wells with Chinese writing on them just south of the Keys," Leonard Gropper, a Marathon, Florida retiree, told the June 20 Orlando Sun-Sentinel.

With just 90 miles separating Cuba and the Florida Keys, Cuba has legal rights to oil and natural gas reserves in its half of the Florida Strait. Cuba can, therefore, produce or lease for production oil and natural gas reserves as close as 45 miles from U.S. shores.

"China is trying to lock up resources around the world, and they are locking up resources in our own backyard where we can't even compete and play ball," Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID) told the Sun-Sentinel. "This is simply wrong. I've had enough, and I believe the American people have had enough."


Needs Are Changing

The U.S. moratorium was imposed during the 1990s when oil prices were low and the need for new production seemed distant. Those days are long gone, observes Heritage Foundation Senior Policy Analyst Ben Lieberman.

"While fears of environmental damage trumped price concerns in the 1990s, times have changed. Technological advances have greatly reduced environmental risks, and oil prices are much higher now and do not appear likely to appreciably decline any time soon," said Lieberman.

"The changing nature of the situation is being driven home very starkly with the [construction] of Chinese oil rigs within sight of U.S. shores," Lieberman added. "The Chinese can drill within sight of our coastline, but we cannot. In fact, we cannot drill even twice as far away from the U.S. coastline as the Chinese do. This does not sit well with many people in Florida."

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=19479
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it does not mean that they will not resume operations there. as far as "cleanly" as a relative term, yes it sure is relative.

tar sands oil will destory the area they are being mined at...that's Canada's choice to harvest oil from it.

as far as shale oil using more water in order to refine it, that depends on how the shale oil will be processed. mining the shale is not a good option, Shell's plan to heat the ground to release the oil is a better alternative and IT IS CLEANER compared to Exxon's old process of mining the shales and using steam to release the oil.

it's still a better alternative than to send dollars overseas for oil and fund terrorists. I do agree that there will come a time where oil would be too costly to burn, I don't see that time coming anytime soon. again, there is no single alternative that can replaced oil. so the status quo is still being pushed to be kept in place - buy oil from foreign countries instead of keeping oil profits locally and use part of the profits to fund alternative fuel research.