E85 - 85% Ethanol 15% Gasoline

[krousdb]

A related article

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-02-14-e85-usat_x.htm

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by rh77

My concern is that GM rushed it (as usual) and didn't fortify the vital seals and components like they should. Remember the Olds and Cadillac Diesels of the late 70's/early 80's? I predict the vehicles will have several recalls, put a bad taste of ethanol in America's mouth (no pun intended), and we're back to using dino juice.

in GM's defense (i drive a pontiac, after all... and pontiac builds excitement), they've actually been building E85 capable vehicles for years. this is just a marketing program to raise the profile of an existing (inexpensive) engine option. one which, i assume has no known reliability issues.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/08/gm_e85_promotio.html

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by krousdb

A related article

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-02-14-e85-usat_x.htm

The information in this article is why I think that ethanol/E85 is not a good idea. Ethanol burns much cleaner-I like that part- but if you have to burn so much more of it to go the same distance, ethanol could end up producing more pollution overall. Thoughts?

[SVOboy]

The one oil person did say that it is better for the environment, despite the fact that you need to burn more of it.

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

The one oil person did say that it is better for the environment, despite the fact that you need to burn more of it.

I think ethanol probably is cleaner burning than gasoline. Burning one gallon of ethanol probably puts out less pollution than burning one gallon of gas. The problem seems to be, according to the article, that you would have to burn close to a gallon and a half of ethanol to equal one gallon of gas. I think ethanol could, in time, be a good thing. I just wish the officials would at least admit these problems exist. It's the same with seatbelts when they were made mandatory in our state. The officials made it sound like we would suddenly be safer by just wearing our belts. If you don't add driver education things could actually get worse because people could say, "Oh well, I got my seatbelt on. I'll be ok." So if we just switch to ethanol without changing people's driving techniques/attitudes, we could end up being right where we are or worse with ethanol's decreased efficiency. Ok, now to climb off my soapbox.... :-)

[JanGeo]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ETList/message/6022

To the anxiety of many energy-watchers, America is switching all its gasoline by May 5 to a new blended gasoline that uses 10 percent ethanol to create its octane rating.

The old octane booster, MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), has been virtually outlawed as a cancer-causing pollutant and won't be used after May 5.

"Ethanol doesn't travel well - in pipelines it separates into water and liquids - and has to be trucked wherever it goes."

The blending is also done at the retail level, usually at the wholesale tank farms just before it's trucked locally to service stations.

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Get your testing done ASAP looks like we are all going to get screwed.

[SVOboy]

What solution do you propose? To ignore that MTBE causes cancer?

This is what the japanese government has done with their trash...Ignore that burning it creates dioxin and kills tons of people through cancer, because they want to run less trash trucks and save some space.

I have yet to see someone who hates ethanol to propose something better, pay the ****ing 50 cents a fill up, geez.

[GasSavers_brick]

Very interesting article about E10 going nationwide. I've been misinformed for a while about oxygenate, and just thought that MTBE was a winter thing that went away for warm weather.

If we could produce ethanol more efficiently (like Brazil, which has a very innovative system) I would be all for it. Not only does it burn cleaner, but the CO2 that is produced during combustion is effectively recycled when you grow your corn/soy/sugarcane to produce more ethanol. It is nearly ecologically neutral.

On the topic of bad gas mileage, there is a very good reason that our "FFVs" don't do well on ethanol: they aren't optimized for it. It is true that it has less energy per unit volume than gasoline, but keep in mind that the thermodynamic efficiency of a gasoline engine is at best 30%. This means that, in theory, you could make up the difference through improved efficiency within the engine itself. For example, gasoline engines designed for 87 octane need to have a relatively low compression ratio (CR) to keep the fuel from autoigniting and ruining the engine. However, the lower the CR the lower your theoretical thermodynamic efficiency. Ethanol's relatively high octane rating allows for a higher compression ratio, helping out your fuel economy.

I'm not up on the other properties of ethanol relative to gasoline, but there is more to be considered. Ignition energy requirement, flame speed, and the equivalence ratio (fancy term for a/f ratio) over which a fuel will burn play an important role as well. For example, ethanol might lend itself to lean-burn engines better than gasoline. That would be huge! Look at the numbers for the MT Insight vs the CVT version and you can see what I mean. Gas mileage is significantly better for the MT version, owing primarily to the lean-burn mode of operation when less power is needed.

Just food for thought. My background in this is decent but limited so I don't really know what's possible. I do, however, believe that there is a sound engineering solution to every problem. Just keep in mind that it may be you guys tinkering in your garages on project cars who pin it down first. Auto companies will do what's profitable, enthusiasts will do what works.

/soap box

[JanGeo]

Well I gassed up today and noticed a sticker on the pump that says that this fuel contains Ethanol so I asked inside about it and they said that they have had it for a few weeks - which may have been the last time I gassed up there or not - don't remember. Anyway the 11.9 gallon tank filled to the brim last time took 11.109 to fill to the brim again. Will definately see how the mileage does this time with the Synlube in the Power Steering, Engine and Transmission and I am still GP7 and Acetone and Xylene.

[krousdb]

Originally Posted by JanGeo

Well I gassed up today and noticed a sticker on the pump that says that this fuel contains Ethanol so I asked inside about it and they said that they have had it for a few weeks - which may have been the last time I gassed up there or not - don't remember. Anyway the 11.9 gallon tank filled to the brim last time took 11.109 to fill to the brim again. Will definately see how the mileage does this time with the Synlube in the Power Steering, Engine and Transmission and I am still GP7 and Acetone and Xylene.

How do keep up with all of that stuff? Is the added expense worth the FE increase? How much per tank does it cost for the additives?