Want to read some half-truths from GM?? - Page 3

goofy1 · 09-14-2008, 06:57 PM

i'm still here. we're facing all the damage from whats left of Ike as a depression here. but i'm confused on how you think we've proved u right. all our info has proven the gm cut the cord on a good idea and car. and have tried to hidden the fact that they were bought out by the oil companys. i just hope they've learned from the past and that consummers more wise then before. GM used what $$ was for the ev1, and put it in the marketing for the Hummer H2. what car is the consummer yelling for? and what are they trying to sale? Btw Cruzedriver, i saw your profile and it says you work in Industrial Engineer at GM Powertrain. But you drive a Benz and Mazda? Just wondering? and isn't the Cruze a Malibu?

rgathright · 09-16-2008, 11:03 AM

@Cruzedriver: The reason, I am pinning so many hopes on the commercial production of EV's on GM and automakers in general is because the supply of motor controllers for EV's is limited right now. The lead-acid batteries and DC motors are in plentiful supply but the motor controllers require IGBT's which are nearly nonexistant due to the complex manufacturing required, require a 6 month wait. If automobile manufacturers start production, the electronics industry will respond with cheaper parts and move the whole market forward.

I cannot present you with a business model because of the availability of these parts. I do know that GM was charging $5,000 on paper (WKTEC) for a set of lead-acid batteries in the EV1. You and I both know that no car on road can hold $5,000 worth of lead-acid batteries (I get my batteries from a marine wholesaler). Using this as evidence, I question how the EV1 costs $47,409.92 in 2008 dollars. The only unknown for me are the costs associated with manufacture of the body and frame of the EV1. Further, the Toyota Prius can now be bought for ($22,000 MSRP + $5,000 Adjustment) = $27,000. Removing the engine ($3,000) and doubling the batteries with a battery charger ($5,000), the Prius becomes an EV for $29,000 in 2008 dollars. Those numbers come from the bookPlug In Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America by Sherry Boschert as part of research conducted by CalCars.org. The evidence is clear, with excessive dealer markup included we can have electric cars on the road, the only question is why automakers insist it requires more engineering to accomplish.

Yet, if we assume GM is in "stall the bankruptcy" mode, why do they insist on producing a new body for the Volt? In the past, GM made an electric truck using the proven S-10 body. Another question could be, why not using the existing S-10 platform to make a "budget" EV? The truck would be very popular in the south because if could be used as a commuter vehicle.

Pulling on your knowledge of drivetrains, what are your thoughts on using a single electric motor connected to the rear axle (direct drive)? Golf carts use this primitive technology to great effect. Additionally, this would reduce the need to a transmission and driveshaft, decreasing the drivetrain loss by 10% or more. Electric remote control cars are also among the direct drive line up, some cars are able to achieve the equivalent of 100+ Mph (by scale). Yes, they run out of power quickly, but this is because we drive them at full speed all the time.

Looking forward to more discussion. I am trying to pull together as much supplementary evidence as possible. Just remember, I am not in the auto industry so some of the facts and figures are only available to insiders.

Wyldesoul · 09-17-2008, 05:47 AM

Honestly, it's very easy to think of why nobody would buy it.

Perhaps let's give the EV1 a lot of credit, and say it's equivalent to say.. A Monte Carlo in terms of size and interior space.

If you could choose between that and a Monte Carlo, and you're a normal thinking person. Why would you buy an EV1 for 1-2 hundred per month more than the Monte? And with the Monte, it gets relatively good MPG, so you're maybe paying $50 a month, tops. Even if we pretend the EV1 is free to charge, which it isn't, that's no savings at all.. Plus you don't have to remember to charge it, just spend 5 minutes a week at the gas pump, plus you get a lot more performance, cheaper maintenance, and better reliability.

It really is a no brainer why people didn't want to buy an EV1.

goofy1 · 09-18-2008, 05:39 AM

just to add more info on the Volt. Now GM is saying it when the gas engine is running, it's range will be 300miles. thats not what they said at first. i can't remember the number but it was like 400-500mile range. but more on that later. gotta work

itjstagame · 09-18-2008, 06:41 AM

I'm sure you guys understand that hundreds of people wanting and EV1 would mean nothing to GM, right? Like was said above it'd have to have been hundreds of thousands in order to garner a profit not to mention having keep up with maintance of batteries which even now we can see can be quite costly (one of the complaints of the Prius).

It's true that I've made a battery controller in my basement too and I can't believe such a defect got through to production, but I really don't know what it was like in 1996. Reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGBT#History You can see that IGBTs didn't really get up to speed until the early 1980s. 20 years later they're still quite pricey and I imagine even more expensive 10 years ago. Deep cycle batteries are really expensive now too and I bet cost more back then.

I'm just saying I can see the reasoning behind them wanting to end it and wanting to get everyone off the road for liability reasons. I mean you think it's great because it's an electric car but it was VERY tiny and had many issues and a super short range in winter. Could you really deal with driving a quirky car like that for the fuel savings? I look at them more as the predecessor to the neighborhood EVs.

goofy1 · 09-24-2008, 07:51 PM

let me add alittle more info on that EV1 and the other ev's of the time. from wikipedia. "the California Air Resources Board (CARB) mandated electric car sales by major automakers. In response, makers developed EVs including the Chrysler TEVan, Ford Ranger EV pickup truck, GM EV1 and S10 EV pickup, Honda EV Plus hatchback, Nissan lithium-battery Altra EV miniwagon and Toyota RAV4 EV. Automakers refused to properly promote or sell their EVs, allowed consumers to drive them only by closed-end lease and, along with oil groups, fought the mandate. hmmmmm heres the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car
now on the news, internet and in Motor Trend. GM is trying to sale the Hummer (which is what replaced the EV1 department, along with all the budget for the ev1) and is making a plug-in hybrid.hmmmm funny how things happen