France taxing performance out of existence

[LDB]

The hot hatches, and others, are to be taxed into oblivion. Will the rest of Europe follow suit?

https://www.evo.co.uk/hot-hatchbacks...rce=newsletter

[trollbait]

They'll just become hybrids and plug ins.

[JockoT]

Originally Posted by trollbait

They'll just become hybrids and plug ins.

Hybrids and Plugins are also being made illegal. In the UK any car with a petrol or diesel engine will be illegal to be sold, new, as of 2035. So you are talking EV or hydrogen power only (unless fusion drive comes along in the intervening years...).

[Draigflag]

As the article reads, Peugeot are ahead of the game, they must have known. With their hybrid technology being used as a performance booster AND an emissions killer. The 3008 SUV has 300 bhp and a 0-60 of 5.9 seconds, whilst the new 508 has 355 bhp. Will be a shame to see full ice hot hatches go though, one of the reasons they are so quick and nimble is because they are lightweight, adding motors and batteries will ruin handling abilities somewhat.

[JockoT]

Originally Posted by Draigflag

Will be a shame to see full ice hot hatches go though, one of the reasons they are so quick and nimble is because they are lightweight, adding motors and batteries will ruin handling abilities somewhat.

Hydrogen-powered Hot hatches will come along in the next 10 years or so.

[Draigflag]

Can't see that being a thing, all the investment and government backing is in bev's, and with only 13 hydrogen stations in the UK Vs 30000 EV stations, gonna take some serious infrastructure investment.

[JockoT]

BEV is pretty useless for HGVs, other than local delivery. IMHO the future of goods transport is Hydrogen fuelled vehicles.

[trollbait]

Originally Posted by JockoT

Hybrids and Plugins are also being made illegal. In the UK any car with a petrol or diesel engine will be illegal to be sold, new, as of 2035. So you are talking EV or hydrogen power only (unless fusion drive comes along in the intervening years...).

We can make carbon neutral diesel and gasoline. Porsche is going to build a plant for gasoline. There is also methanol, ammonia, and methane that can be carbon neutral.

But I think an engine ban was needed in major markets to get the auto industry moveing away from fossil fuels.

Originally Posted by JockoT

Hydrogen-powered Hot hatches will come along in the next 10 years or so.

Right now, hydrogen fuel cells might get to 100k miles with just losing 10% of their power, on average. Some won't lose that much, but others could lose 30%. The goal is 150k miles(5000hrs) for an average under 10%. That was deemed acceptable to potential car owners. it isn't for commercial trucks.

Hydrogen engines are possible, and Wankels seem to meant for it, but if there is an engine ban...

Originally Posted by JockoT

BEV is pretty useless for HGVs, other than local delivery. IMHO the future of goods transport is Hydrogen fuelled vehicles.

The range of the Tesla Semi is enough for what most commercial trucks seem in daily use, and that is in the US. Grid upgrades will be required for charging, but hydrogen stations aren't electron sippers.

The hurdle for hydrogen is the complete lack of distribution infrastructure, and because of hydrogen's nature, building it won't be cheap. Ammonia is being suggested as a carrier for getting it around. You strip the hydrogen off when it gets to its destination.

Of course, ammonia could be used as a fuel directly. Or we can make methanol from green hydrogen. That Porsche plant will use wind power to make hydrogen to methanol to gasoline. Audi had pilot plants making methane and a light fuel oil that be refined into diesel.

The issue with such e-fuels is cost. Porsche is making it for classic and hobby cars that aren't daily drivers. When most people are driving a plug in with EV range for daily use though, then the cost could be acceptable for those longer trips.

[JockoT]

When I was talking about hydrogen-fuelled vehicles, I did not mean fuel cells but an ICE burning hydrogen instead of petrol or diesel.
The Orkney Islands in the north of Scotland have an overabundance of tidal generated electricity, and they are using it to produce hydrogen. Among other things, it is used to power the island ferries while in port. Once sufficient engineering training is complete, and crews certified, it will be used to power the ferries between islands and between the islands and the mainland.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...hydrogen-power

[trollbait]

Originally Posted by JockoT

When I was talking about hydrogen-fuelled vehicles, I did not mean fuel cells but an ICE burning hydrogen instead of petrol or diesel.
The Orkney Islands in the north of Scotland have an overabundance of tidal generated electricity, and they are using it to produce hydrogen. Among other things, it is used to power the island ferries while in port. Once sufficient engineering training is complete, and crews certified, it will be used to power the ferries between islands and between the islands and the mainland.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...hydrogen-power

Do you have weird censorship, because that article put in effort to not say fuel cell. Talking about the vans, it states "combines with oxygen inside the van to produce an electrical reaction". That isn't burning hydrogen, and the phrase is a link to an article about FCEVs.

Even the linked article on their ferry makes no mention how the ship will use the hydrogen, but it does say they are working with Ballard Power, who is one of the big fuel cell companies.
https://www.ballard.com/
A later link about a hydrogen ferry in the US says fuel cell in the first line.

That weirdness aside, I had once questioned why didn't car companies supporting FCEVs put out hydrogen ICE cars. They would be a lot cheaper than current FCEVs, and support the growing hydrogen infrastructure through increased demand. They would even get ZEV credits like PHEVs do in California.

The short answer is that hydrogen is a crap fuel for engines.

There was once a BMW 7 series and Mazda RX-8 that ran on hydrogen for limited sale. To maintain the power output of the V12 in the BMW, the hydrogen was gulped down; an equivalent of around 4mpg to the car's already poor 12mpg on gasoline. The RX-8 didn't suffer a fuel economy dive, but power output was almost half.

Those were bi-fuel cars, so a hydrogen dedicated engine might better. On their EV SUV, Mazda plans a Wankel range extender. In markets with hydrogen available, it might use the gas as fuel. It seems the Wankel design is almost perfect for hydrogen. If true, that means a big investment for companies not making them. Either way, I think a hydrogen engine will still lag a gasoline one in various performance measures.

Burning hydrogen also isn't zero emission. There will be NOx formation in the engine. I couldn't say how much, but if what gets into the tailpipe is too high, then work on emission controls is needed. The three-way catalytic converter in gasoline cars reduces NOx in conjunction with reducing HC and CO. Without those in the exhaust, a hydrogen ICE may need emission controls like diesels; NOx traps and SCR.