EPA accuses Fiat Chrysler of using software to allow excess pollution in diesels

[Draigflag]

Originally Posted by BlueRover

Lots of French built cars in North America, in scrap heaps in Canada and the U.S. or on the road in the poverty stricken countries that compose a portion of the Continent

Why? French cars are extremely reliable, or are you plucking a comment from the 1970's again? I don't believe a Land Rover owner would start a debate about reliability would they, given land rover have been bottom of the table for about 7 years, with the range rover taking 8th most unreliable car, and first position goes to.....you guessed it, the discovery!

[BlueRover]

Rover customers are much more fussy and expect more from their cars than value added brands. Rover will be supplying new diesel engines to Ford in North America so somebody must be happy.

Yes sadly my own car is going in to the dealership today for 2 "major" recalls, the hatch when it opens sometimes squeaks ( new gasket for the tail lights is the fix) and the rear seat will also squeak sometimes at high temperatures when it is position number 1 . Neither one is of any concern to me but they ordered the parts on my free first years service so I do feel obligated to have them do the updates.

Land Rover built in the 70's are still driving on the roads in North America and French cars sold in the 80's never made it to the 90's

[SteveMak]

re: Rover (un)reliability?

I can't speak to various brands from a position of personally owning them (I've only owned a couple Hondas, 4 BMWs, and now an Audi). But I do have an interesting story.

Here in Oakville, a wealthy family owns a number of auto dealerships, including BMW, Jaguar, and Rover. I spoke with the one of the owners when I was planning to get my first BMW. I expressed my concern for reliability and few repairs, and said I was considering a Jag. The owner, who owns dealerships for various brands, told me of all the stuff his family sells, "you'll have the least problems with a BMW." That was *his* opinion. A sale to any of his showrooms was still a sale in his pocket.

Now we can go with one guy's opinion, or look solely to Consumer Reports, or look solely to J.D.Powers... it's all a matter of what you believe.

I never had any of my cars fail and strand me. Sounds like a glowing review to get a BMW, right? Well if you have deep pockets for the most trivial of maintenance and VERY deep pockets for repairs, then yeah, BMW makes fine cars.

Some folks care about TCO, or Total Cost of Ownership. Some about lack of seeing the shop. Some about apparent luxury. Some about fuel economy. Some about status. To each their own. If you love what you drive, then good on you! :-)

[Draigflag]

Exactly Steve, BlueRover basing opinions of cars 40 years ago on cars of today, really? So nothing has changed in nearly half a century? Independent consumer reports are your best bet, don't ever listen to anyone's "personal" experience, they could have had a very good car, or a very bad one. Renault are 10th in the reliability table here, Land Rover are 37th, second from last just above Bentley.

Hopefully BlueRover will admit he's wrong now, but I'm not holding my breath lol.

[SteveMak]

Originally Posted by Draigflag

...Renault are 10th in the reliability table here, Land Rover are 37th, second from last just above Bentley...

"Reliability" is an interesting term. I always though J.D.Powers numbers indicate "likelihood of being defect-free for the duration", until I got an "initial vehicle quality" survey from J.D.Powers.

It was comprehensive, but what they called a "defect" was not my understanding of a "defect." I thought "defect" meant something was broken, like your window doesn't open or the signal stalk is broken right off. Nope. J.D.Powers considers a "defect" as anything the customer complains about. Do you feel the ride is too firm for your liking? Defect. Feel the infotainment UI is too complex? Defect. Think the seats aren't comfortable? Defect. It's basically ANYTHING the user might complain about, regardless if they're in the right, reasonable, or otherwise.

I regard stats and "findings" with a substantial degree of suspicion. I want to be certain what their definitions are, and how they were obtained. Often, the data presented and how we understand it is not an accurate reflection of the state of affairs.

It's one of the reasons I'm reluctant to tell people "what it is." I can tell you what I like, but I can't tell you what you'll like, or tolerate, or love.

[Draigflag]

The JD power survery is pretty comprehensive and covers all aspects. They give an "overall" rating for every individual car (and manufacturer), which is obviously an average for all the other aspects, ride quality, build quality, reliability, running costs etc etc. You can filter all these things individually, you might find a car that scores highly on ride quality scores badly on reliability, it depends what matters most to you. I've filled in a survey before now, it takes quite a long time!

[BlueRover]

Originally Posted by SteveMak

"R Nope. J.D.Powers considers a "defect" as anything the customer complains about. Do you feel the ride is too firm for your liking? Defect. Feel the infotainment UI is too complex? Defect. Think the seats aren't comfortable? Defect. It's basically ANYTHING the user might complain about, regardless if they're in the right, reasonable, or otherwise.

.

So like I said most owners of luxury cars are complaining about items that other cars do not even offer LOL

And rebadged French cars where sold by Chrysler just before they went broke the first time LOL

[SteveMak]

Originally Posted by BlueRover

So like I said most owners of luxury cars are complaining about items that other cars do not even offer...

Although some people hold this opinion, I know of no data that supports it or quantifies to what extent it might be true.

It is also reported anecdotally that Tesla owners are so into owning a Tesla that they overlook things that would be considered defects in an economy car, such ar poorly fitting body panels. Again, I know of no data that supports this belief or quantifies to what extent it might be true.

[Draigflag]

Originally Posted by BlueRover

And rebadged French cars where sold by Chrysler just before they went broke the first time LOL

Just to clarify in my mind then, your outdated twisted false perceptions, which have statistically been proven wrong in the vast gathering of first hand consumer feedback year on year, are based on cars decades ago, and nothing will change your opinion?

I'm just trying to figure out how someone with a mindset like that gets on in every day life ???

[BlueRover]

Constantly not having to post pictures of my car, talking about my particulate car , and hijacking most threads to mention my car gives me a great and pleasant life. I could mention my time volunteering in youth sports, travelling around the continent, etc. Ahh! a full and productive life who could ask for more. Well if only our hockey team was doing better life would be much nicer. Steve knows what I mean.

Oh by the way my major recalls went well today, they gave me a top of the line loaner, washed my car and even topped up the windshield washer fluid. Sort of free as well, had to top up the loaners fuel tank