Alternate Radiator Locations

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by NovaResource

The WAI helping fuel economy is a myth. While it doesn't hurt economy, it can hurt performance and if too warm, cause detonation.
http://www.metrompg.com/posts/wai-test.htm

That was one car. As I said, in my observations of data it varies from car to car. Some vehicles get significant increases, some record no change at all.

Originally Posted by maximilian

The wiki article on WAI suggests that the primary gain comes from the reduced air intake resistance caused by the computer opening the intake diaphragm more to keep the oxygen level the same. FYI.

I've always thought that the reduced throttling/pumping loss is a large component of the savings.

[GasSavers_maximilian]

Originally Posted by theholycow

I've always thought that the reduced throttling/pumping loss is a large component of the savings.

The wiki entry lists that as the only source of improvement so I was curious what you thought.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by NovaResource

Yes, more air means more fuel for more power but that also means less throttle opening to produce the same power. Smaller throttle openings means less air flow means less fuel added.

So, more fuel means less fuel?

The throttle is an artificial restriction. It is purposeful waste whose job is to control engine speed. If engine speed can be controlled with less throttling (wider open throttle), the engine has to work less hard to pull air past the throttle.

Imagine the energy you would exert to drink a milkshake through a coffee stirrer, vs. the energy you would exert to drink a milshake through a jumbo straw. A closed throttle is a waste, an open throttle (as long as it's not causing excess power to be produced) reduces that waste. Operating on that concept has produced decent results for me.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by maximilian

The wiki entry lists that as the only source of improvement so I was curious what you thought.

Some days I theorize a lot, other days I merely observe results (which are really what matters). Ask again another day.

[GasSavers_maximilian]

Well, we'll see what result I get as well. One more data point. The Accent sure does route its intake hose in a convoluted nature!

[GasSavers_NovaResource]

Originally Posted by theholycow

So, more fuel means less fuel?

No, denser air does require more fuel but because it makes more power the intake doesn't have to open as much. That means the amount of fuel added is the same. You get the same ratio of fuel (14.7:1 stiochometric) with a smaller throttle opening.

Originally Posted by theholycow

The throttle is an artificial restriction. It is purposeful waste whose job is to control engine speed. If engine speed can be controlled with less throttling (wider open throttle), the engine has to work less hard to pull air past the throttle.

You don't understand how an engine works. An engine does not PULL air past the throttle. Atmospheric air pressure PUSHES air into the engine.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by NovaResource

You don't understand how an engine works. An engine does not PULL air past the throttle. Atmospheric air pressure PUSHES air into the engine.

Same as the example I said about sucking a milkshake through a straw. You don't pull it through, atmospheric pressure pushes it.

[GasSavers_NovaResource]

Originally Posted by theholycow

Same as the example I said about sucking a milkshake through a straw. You don't pull it through, atmospheric pressure pushes it.

Air is not thick like a milkshake. You example is flawed.

[R.I.D.E.]

Originally Posted by NovaResource

I totally agree and I go one step further: oil temps. Keeping the engine warm (coolant and oil) is the most efficient.



Yes, a warm engine, but not warm intake air.
Yes, more air means more fuel for more power but that also means less throttle opening to produce the same power. Smaller throttle openings means less air flow means less fuel added. Also, the cooler the intake air, the more ignition advance you get. The earlier you ignite the fuel the more complete burn you get. Warm air means risk of detonation so the ignition is retarded. Retarded ignition means less burn time and more fuel wasted.

Warm Air Intakes do not create better mileage. Read the test proof:
http://www.metrompg.com/posts/wai-test.htm

Greater density means more fuel. Hot air is less dense, so you need to make sure you use the term density instead of more. I can feed 20% more volume of air into an engine if it is at 200 degrees as I can at 32 degrees and its the same mass (weight) of air.

We all should understand that the smaller engine working at a greater load is more efficient. If I could reduce the engine size by changing the displacement so it would operate at cruising speeds with no manifold vacuum, then I get the greatest effective compression and the highest efficiency.

The problem arises when I need more power to climb a hill or merge onto an interstate, but how many times in a 1000 mile trip do you actually floor the gas pedal. So we design cars for the extremes and lose any chance for real mileage. Now if you could add a supplemental power source for the extremes you could have twice the gas mileage.

WAI is a method of effectively reducing the displacement of a conventional engine, while increasing the effective compression and thus increasing the efficiency. For mr in thousands of miles off real world experience it is worth at least 10% in mileage. Whether it works or not in every car I certainly can't say, but in my case it has worked with every car I have driven that I could change the intake system. On my VX it was simple, I reversed the intak air snorkel so it was pulling air right at the top radiator hose and the top tank of the radiator.

The old Packards had the thermostatically operated louvres in the radiator that controlled air flow to the radiator. Tractor trailers have adjustable tarps with zippers that allow them to reduce the airlflow over the radiator, which also serves to increase the intake air temperature. they do this because it works, and reduces their fuel cost, guaranteed. Hot air allows the fuel to atomize better and results in more complete combustion. Perfect atomization of the fuel would increase engine efficiency by 25%. Check out homogenous charge compression ignition, which is when you can use compression only to ignite gasoline, like a diesel running on gasoline.

Honda designed a lean burn engine to run on regular gasoline at air-fuel ratios of 22 to 1 and higher. No preignition, just a very turbulent air intake strategy that allowed better atomization.

The old preheated carburetors gave way to injectors that sprayed a very fine mist of fuel directly on the head of the intake valve, which helped with atomization as well as cooling the valve.

New direct injection systems are now operating at pressures above 20,000 psi at the injectors which improves atomization, and the next step is HCCI (homogenous charge compression ignition) which is controlled detonation or "spark knock". There is no problem because the air-fuel mixture is truly perfectly distributed so the instant conbustion occurs it happens everywhere in the combustion chamber, instead of originating in separate points and colliding somewhere in the combustion chamber.

All of these things are coming, but no matter what they do they will not make an engine run better at 40 below than it does at 90 above. By better I mean more mileage, not more power.

In most cases more power does not mean more efficiency. Hondas most efficient gasoline engine is not a 4 valve per cylinder design. Instead it si a two valve twin plug design with a very high swirl in the combustion chamber to maximise the consistency of the mixture.

regards
gary

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by NovaResource

Air is not thick like a milkshake. You example is flawed.

Ok, imagine going for a brisk run then breathing through a coffee stirrer vs. breathing through a jumbo straw.